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Best car/truck for a motor/trans swap?

hyghlndr

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Looking for advice on the best/easiest late model donor car for a swap. Looking to potentially go to EFI and auto. I see a lot of discussion with mustang and explorers as potential choices. I know I will need a transmission adapter for the transfer case. I did see a thread about a 2000 Explorer but it sounded more difficult with wiring (anti-theft, computer) Would like specific years or models that are the most straight forward.

thanks
 

Dan76

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May 17, 2006
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Tito did very detailed writeup on a 5.0 explorer swap using the RJM harness. I also believe a few members have swapped the 4R70W auto transmission, it will net you an overdrive which is sweet! When money allows this will be the setup I would like to run.

Here's the thread about the 5.0 swap.
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119070
 

Steve83

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Make sure the donor Explorer/Mountaineer 5.0L is a MAF/EDIS/OBD-II engine, like around '99. The more of the donor wiring you use, the better/easier/more straightforward it will be. Truck engines have a cam that makes torque at a lower RPM, so they're better than car engines. And their PCMs are programmed for truck-like shifting if you use an electronic slushbox. Using the donor t-case would also give you ESOF, and if you really wanted to go nuts, you could use the ABS/Traction Control.
 

Broncobowsher

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Make sure the donor Explorer/Mountaineer 5.0L is a MAF/EDIS/OBD-II engine, like around '99. The more of the donor wiring you use, the better/easier/more straightforward it will be. Truck engines have a cam that makes torque at a lower RPM, so they're better than car engines. And their PCMs are programmed for truck-like shifting if you use an electronic slushbox. Using the donor t-case would also give you ESOF, and if you really wanted to go nuts, you could use the ABS/Traction Control.

That is NOT an easy swap. Not at all recomended for a first timer.

A lot more realistic swap, Explorer engine and trans. '96 is best (for reasons I will try and get to later) but anything up to '01 will do for the 5.0 V8.

Ditch the stock Explorer eletronics and do a mustang based computer. Way more support for parts and upgrades.

The '96 will work best for the mustang based computer as it uses mostly the same sensors as the mustang. EGR is still done by position sensor, not pressure differential. Injectors are mustang 19 Lb orange top, not 17Lb white body. The heads will work better with Bronco style exhaust with less issues, the later "P" heads like to route the plug wire too close to most headers/manifolds and requires more work to get it to fit. The '96 also has a conventional pressure regulator and return line. The newer they are the more work it takes to make them work.

Now for the transmission. If you get an AWD (often called 4WD) Explorer then you don't need to open the transmission. Either use a NP205 from a late 70's ford truck for the cheap way, a ZF adaptor to keep the stock D20 (or go out and use an Advanced Adaptors late AOD converion kit which also works for the 2WD transmissions), or get fancy and do an Atlas or Stak. That will get you the 4WD part working. To get it to shift, I have tried a few different ways. The best so far is to use the Baumanator www.becontrols.com to shift it.

There is no perfect one stop shopping. But there are plenty of great parts if you get some from here and some from there. It only takes a couple of different donors. In a nutshell, Explorer engine and trans run with a Mustang computer, harness and MAF. Transmission shifted by an aftermarket computer and split the power using a junkyard NP205 transfer case. Makes for a great drivetrain that is fairly easy on the pocketbook and fairly easy to install. There are several variations of the above, different cam, different transfer case, etc. But that is a good baseline to go from. A lot also depends on what you find.
 

Steve83

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That is NOT an easy swap. Not at all recomended for a first timer.
...
Ditch the stock Explorer eletronics and do a mustang based computer.
...
There is no perfect one stop shopping. ... It only takes a couple of different donors. In a nutshell, Explorer engine and trans run with a Mustang computer, harness and MAF. Transmission shifted by an aftermarket computer and split the power using a junkyard NP205 transfer case.
Are you really suggesting that all that mixing-n-matching would be easier for a beginner to understand than simply taking something that WORKS & putting it all into another vehicle? I don't think so.
Way more support for parts and upgrades.
If you're advocating ease for a beginner, who cares about upgrades? The swap in itself is the ultimate upgrade. And I don't think you can find more support than there is for a stock '99 Explorer. Any shop in the country (probably on the PLANET) can diagnose/repair/find parts for one, so that's easily more support than anything you cobble together.
The newer they are the more work it takes to make them work.
I disagree. The more you mix crap up the more work they are to make work & keep working.
To get it to shift, I have tried a few different ways. The best so far is to use the Baumanator...
You think it works better than the stock PCM? Again: I disagree. I don't see any big rush of stock Ex/Mtnr owners to buy an aftermarket controller.

Here's the straight fact: a stock Explorer powertrain works. Well. Keep it together & working like it was designed to, and you'll have MANY miles of easy driving ahead of you, even if it's inside an eB skin. And that's the easiest way to make it work - as a complete system. Why? Because it's already designed & built to work that way. If Frank could have afforded a wrecked '99 Ex back in '99 when we built his truck, that's what I'd have put in his. But the '88 F150 stuff in it now works better than we ever expected.
 

Pa PITT

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I can say don't use a 1983 lincoln ..my buddy used a 302 from a 1983
we wanted the throttle body ..and a non elec aod...this was not the correct swap .....YOU NEW COMERS HERE i'VE noticed that that the advise here seems to follow a group or a era of time ..one 6 month periods were on one thing next 6 month we move to a better system so all advise goes with use with caushion
 

Broncobowsher

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Are you really suggesting that all that mixing-n-matching would be easier for a beginner to understand than simply taking something that WORKS & putting it all into another vehicle? I don't think so.If you're advocating ease for a beginner, who cares about upgrades? The swap in itself is the ultimate upgrade. And I don't think you can find more support than there is for a stock '99 Explorer. Any shop in the country (probably on the PLANET) can diagnose/repair/find parts for one, so that's easily more support than anything you cobble together.I disagree. The more you mix crap up the more work they are to make work & keep working.You think it works better than the stock PCM? Again: I disagree. I don't see any big rush of stock Ex/Mtnr owners to buy an aftermarket controller.

Here's the straight fact: a stock Explorer powertrain works. Well. Keep it together & working like it was designed to, and you'll have MANY miles of easy driving ahead of you, even if it's inside an eB skin. And that's the easiest way to make it work - as a complete system. Why? Because it's already designed & built to work that way. If Frank could have afforded a wrecked '99 Ex back in '99 when we built his truck, that's what I'd have put in his. But the '88 F150 stuff in it now works better than we ever expected.

Have you actually swapped an OBDII system before? There are only a handful of OBDII swaps into early Broncos. None were cookie cutter installs. There is a great post regarding an OBD-II Explorer swap on this site. He had it out and running in on the floor in a few hours. but there are countless little bugs to chase out. PATS, vehicle speed, etc. Not many engine swapers keep an ociliscope around to track vehicle speed pulses. Again not the easiest way. Even the above mentioned swap still took a cal editor if I remember right to get the computer happy.

As far as using a stock engine computer to run the transmission, yes it can be done. But keep in mind that the stock Explorer has NO Lo range. By using a dedicated transmission controller you can set your own programming to match the driving needs of low range.

I have done OBD-II swaps in newer vehicles. Swapping between 2 like vehicles works out fairly good. I have done some that have been in SEMA before. But there is so much where the engine controller interfaces deep into the body eletrical system. Stock gas gauge not working, you have a check engine light. Lots of little things like that.

I am sure that in a few years when the OBDII system gets more understood by the weekend swapper then it will be easier. But you also need to remember that the Explorer computer isn't the same for those 6 years they made the 5.0 Explorer. It changed, often. There are usally at least 2 calibrations or more per model year. So what it takes to swap an early '98 motor will all likely be different then what it takes to swap a late '98 motor.

You state that it is best to take a whole running package and put it in. Yes, that is generally the case. But the whole package doesn't drop in that easily. The mix and match is a common and proven combonation. Until you start coming up with fixes for the problems you are going to have during the swap you are just bench swapping. Have you done an OBDII swap before, into an older chassis? How deep have you researched that it will just work with so much of the rest of the vehicle not there? Got a simpler idea for you, just put a Bronco body on an Explorer. That is all likely easier then swapping all the little parts to make the Explorer work. For those of you who fully understand the EEC-V computer and all the sensors, great, go for it. but it isn't the simplist thing for the shade tree mechanic that struggles with points and a carburator to figure out. The mix of parts I listed are a proven combonation that have tons of support behind it. The mustang based EFI is fairly easy to work on, all you really need is a digital meter. The OBDII can pull data through the service port but you need much more expensive and elaborate equipment to do it.

If someone gets lost doing a mustang based engine swap, this site can help.
IF someone gets lost doing an OBDII swap, there are a couple that might be able to help but they are a lot more on there own.
 

Steve83

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Have you actually swapped an OBDII system before?
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/6098#album
There are only a handful of OBDII swaps into early Broncos.
There were NONE before someone did the first one - do you think that's a good reason that he shouldn't have done it?
None were cookie cutter installs.
Nothing on an eB is "cookie-cutter". It took me ~6 months to complete the swap to a 4-turn PS box on Frank's truck because I couldn't find the right inverted-flare fittings.
but there are countless little bugs to chase out.
Are you suggesting that cobbling together 10 vehicles will have FEWER bugs than just swapping the stuff from 1 into another?
Not many engine swapers keep an ociliscope around to track vehicle speed pulses.
Yeah, I know - I'm one of those who has never had a scope, and I've done plenty of swaps like this, including my '83 in my sig. But it doesn't take a scope to check a VSS - Ford recommends using a normal DMM. Even if you need true-RMS, it's only ~$100 for a cheapo.
But there is so much where the engine controller interfaces deep into the body eletrical system. Stock gas gauge not working, you have a check engine light. Lots of little things like that.
"LITTLE" being the operative word. After you've made the decision to do an EFI swap, adding a CEL is about as hard as scratching your butt. And the gas gauge isn't the least bit involved with the PCM, so you're just blowing smoke on that one. The PCM is not only UNinvolved with the body wiring - it's got its own wiring harness with only a few discrete interconnections that are easy to deal with. They don't call it the "Powertrain Control Module" because it operates the power antenna or defroster... You're imagining a LOT more involvement with the body than what actually exists. Only older Land Rovers & a few other exotics put it all in 1 module. Ford keeps it simple.
There are usally at least 2 calibrations or more per model year.
Again: if you use everything from ONE donor vehicle, that's moot.
So what it takes to swap an early '98 motor will all likely be different then what it takes to swap a late '98 motor.
SO??? He's not trying to swap BOTH - only YOU seem to be hung up on that.
How deep have you researched that it will just work with so much of the rest of the vehicle not there?
A lot of research, on several platforms, and several brands.
The mustang based EFI is fairly easy to work on, all you really need is a digital meter. The OBDII can pull data through the service port but you need much more expensive and elaborate equipment to do it.
A DMM can be used just as effectively on OBD-II as EEC-IV, and a ScanGaugeII currently sells for ~$180 to your door. It's only a FEW of the VERY latest (like '08-up) data bus circuits that are too delicate to use a common DMM on, but that's not the kind of swap we're talking about.
IF someone gets lost doing an OBDII swap, there are a couple that might be able to help but they are a lot more on there own.
They aren't 'on their own'. YOU may not be able to help, but there are plenty of us who can. But with a single donor vehicle, it won't take much help. As I've said before - it already works.
 
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1sicbronconut

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As Broncobowsher has stated new OBDII syatems are tied into the body system as a matter of fact one of the big draw backs that I see in doing the complete Exporer swap will be dealing with the PATS system. I'm not sure about the last generation of Explorer's but fuel gauge problems do set a check engine light on newer OBDII equiped cars/truck and it will even shut the engine down on some to prevent a lean condition that might cause engine damage. The Explorer engine is a great canidate for a swap but for most folks it's eaiser to use a Mustang based harness for the swap.
 

jw0747

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Looking for advice on the best/easiest late model donor car for a swap. Looking to potentially go to EFI and auto. I see a lot of discussion with mustang and explorers as potential choices. I know I will need a transmission adapter for the transfer case. I did see a thread about a 2000 Explorer but it sounded more difficult with wiring (anti-theft, computer) Would like specific years or models that are the most straight forward.

thanks

Welcome to CB.com. Geez, you started off by asking a pretty simple question and now we've got a deepening debate going. Hope you're not too confused like me. Hang in there though because somebody who can respond in much simpler terms will probably chime in and hopefully get you on the right path.
 

Dave

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As Broncobowsher has stated new OBDII syatems are tied into the body system as a matter of fact one of the big draw backs that I see in doing the complete Exporer swap will be dealing with the PATS system. I'm not sure about the last generation of Explorer's but fuel gauge problems do set a check engine light on newer OBDII equiped cars/truck and it will even shut the engine down on some to prevent a lean condition that might cause engine damage. The Explorer engine is a great canidate for a swap but for most folks it's eaiser to use a Mustang based harness for the swap.

My 2000 Explorer swap is comming along quite well. The system isn't quite as convoluted as many would have you believe. The engine and transmission controls are separate from the body controls. The PATS and Vehicle Speed Signal from the ABS are the only issues and are pretty easy to deal with. The 5.0L configuration is pretty similar to the older systems. The newer stuff in the modular engines gets pretty convoluted with many devices cummunicating with the PCM. Items like a variable speed fuel pump to manage pressure via network data. I did my first ODB I conversion back when there were many nay sayers poo pooing the effort. Now we have plug and play harnesses as a result of the work of the early pioneers.;) It's not a job everyone might want or have the time to tackle. I wish I had more time to get my porject on the road but it will happen soon.

I'd highly recommend the new explorer as a donor. Even if you drive it with a mustang computer and shift controller.
 

Broncobowsher

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Dave, I love that you are tackling this (the EB OBDII Explorer swap).
But from what I have seen of your work, I think we can agree that the Explorer ECM isn't necessarly the ideal first time EFI swap. At least right now. I do see a future in OBDII conversions, but it is a little further away then the horizon right now.

I am just trying to give the best advice for a first time swapper to get a simple and successful swap as painlessly as possible. I can think of a dozen different options on how it can be done. But when weighing in the difficulity, cost, technical requirements, availability and the final outcome I still stick to my original recomendation as the best possible solution until some hard parts start coming into hand which may steer it slightly different direction (for example coming into a low mileage '93 Cobra engine would change some of my suggestions, just you don't come across too many of those).
 

Dave

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Dave, I love that you are tackling this (the EB OBDII Explorer swap).
But from what I have seen of your work, I think we can agree that the Explorer ECM isn't necessarly the ideal first time EFI swap. At least right now. I do see a future in OBDII conversions, but it is a little further away then the horizon right now.

I am just trying to give the best advice for a first time swapper to get a simple and successful swap as painlessly as possible. I can think of a dozen different options on how it can be done. But when weighing in the difficulity, cost, technical requirements, availability and the final outcome I still stick to my original recomendation as the best possible solution until some hard parts start coming into hand which may steer it slightly different direction (for example coming into a low mileage '93 Cobra engine would change some of my suggestions, just you don't come across too many of those).

I totally agree! I think a bunch of mis-information gets thrown out there on the OBD II to make it out to be less viable than it is. I took me less time to get the explorer system up and running in the test stand than it did the 94 Mustang and the diagnostic interface is really neat compared to counting light flashes.
 

Steve83

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The system isn't quite as convoluted as many would have you believe. The engine and transmission controls are separate from the body controls.
There's another voice of experience saying what I've been trying to convey for a few posts now. I don't think I ever suggested this swap was EASY - just easiER than piecing a bunch of stuff together. And the original post didn't ask for an 'easy' swap anyway; it specifically asked for the 'best' that's straightforward. I still maintain that the Ex/Mtnr OBD-II MAF EDIS 5.0L is best for eBs, and that it's more straightforward to transfer everything from one donor.
...a variable speed fuel pump to manage pressure via network data.
Actually, the data network isn't involved in the FPDM. It's on a discrete circuit and the PCM uses only its internal data to manage the duty cycle. But that whole issue is moot since the FPDM wasn't used with the 5.0L, and no one so far has claimed that swap would be best.
 

1sicbronconut

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Yes some things are a lot eaiser if you use everything from a certian car/truck but in this case (5.0L) Explorer I tend to disagree. I've been a Ford tech for over 20 years and driveabilty and wiring are the things I do best. While the Explorer OBDII system is great and a lot eaiser to work with than the newer OBDII systems It's still a lot of work for a first timer when compared to doing a Mustang based swap and from the first post I'm guessing the thread starter is new to this. I spent a total of less than eight hours in the EFI swap did this spring on the 289 in my LUBER, lots more support for this swap also. Not saying either is better/worse but for a first timer the Mustang system is the only way to go IMHO. As far as transfering parts you start with a Explorer long block and add the Mustang EFI components to it. I'd like to do a complete OBDII swap sometime but at this point I'd rather be driving my rig. :^) 5.4L lightning motor would be my choice.
 

needabronco

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To get back to the question at hand without a technical 'pissing match' I agree that the explorer efi swap is a great swap, any 5.0 based efi would be great also... Even if you just swap the intake manifolds and not the entire engine. The reason to use the early explorer 5.0, say 96' or early 97's are due to the cylinder heads. The early explorer setup uses very similar if not the same sensors as the mustang setup. (The 96' sensors even read the same(technical term) as the mustang ones if you reuse some of the existing stuff.)

Doing 'any' efi swap, there is some required research and there is a learning curve. One big reason to do a 'mustang' based swap is the availability of aftermarket wiring harnesses that literally are plug and play for Bronco's. This is a major plus for those who don't desire to completely rebuild a wiring harness, or don't know how to do wiring. Mustang based 5.0 parts are very easy to find and they are for the most part 'cheap'. Further making the swap affordable. Ever try to find parts for an oddball setup at the Moab NAPA at 6pm on a Saturday night? They do have mustang tfi modules readily available...

As Bowsher stated this is to make things 'easy' for most efi 'swappers'. What Dave is doing is awesome, but he also has the technical know how and understanding, not to mention patience to take on that task.

I've been following Bowsher's 4R70W experiences for several years and I know that the mustang eec that he started with didn't quite work with the bronco. Various factors like gearing and tire size effectively change the computers shift points. The Baumann computer fixes all of that because the shift points are adjustable.

I personally and working on an AOD with low gearset, with a custom valve body that will modify the shift points, and control the 3-4 shift electronically just like the 4R70W does, in essence making a non-computer controlled 4R out of an AOD.

Best advice is to get research efi on hear and on the mustang forums. The Probst 'efi bible' is a great resource to get also. So is www.fordfuelinjection.com.

Good luck
 

rjlougee

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Steve83, I don't see any info on your posted link where you took an OBD II engine/tranny/transfer and swapped them into a vehicle with no wiring to support them ahead of time. I see where you replaced one OBD II engine with another, not a big deal in my book. There's a huge difference between what you've "exampled" and what you're asking this guy to do. I'm not saying it's not possible, but you have WAY oversimplified the idea.

For example, he most likely does not have:
1. Dual exhaust.
2. Catalytic converters.
3. HEGO sensors before and after the cats.
4. Etc... Things that need to be added to support an OBD II engine and the associated engine controls.

You may think it's a lot easier to add all these things to the install, but it's not. So now you're going to tell us all about adding the appropriate resistor in the circuit and just about all of us are going the throw the bullsh*t flag. At that point you have, FOR SURE exceeded any potential complexities the "mix-match" of OBD I/II parts may have caused.



Hyghlndr, my personal recommendation would be a '96/7 Explorer engine with the FRPP A50 harness to control it, A9x EEC, and some decent mid-long tube headers. Top it off with a nicely built AOD (if you're needing/wanting the overdrive) or a C-6. C-4s are OK, but it's about as easy to buld a C-6 and buy the adapter as it is to find/build a C-4, and the C-6 will last MUCH longer.
Joe
 

Dave

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Steve83, I don't see any info on your posted link where you took an OBD II engine/tranny/transfer and swapped them into a vehicle with no wiring to support them ahead of time. I see where you replaced one OBD II engine with another, not a big deal in my book. There's a huge difference between what you've "exampled" and what you're asking this guy to do. I'm not saying it's not possible, but you have WAY oversimplified the idea.

For example, he most likely does not have:
1. Dual exhaust.
2. Catalytic converters.
3. HEGO sensors before and after the cats.
4. Etc... Things that need to be added to support an OBD II engine and the associated engine controls.

You may think it's a lot easier to add all these things to the install, but it's not. So now you're going to tell us all about adding the appropriate resistor in the circuit and just about all of us are going the throw the bullsh*t flag. At that point you have, FOR SURE exceeded any potential complexities the "mix-match" of OBD I/II parts may have caused.



Hyghlndr, my personal recommendation would be a '96/7 Explorer engine with the FRPP A50 harness to control it, A9x EEC, and some decent mid-long tube headers. Top it off with a nicely built AOD (if you're needing/wanting the overdrive) or a C-6. C-4s are OK, but it's about as easy to buld a C-6 and buy the adapter as it is to find/build a C-4, and the C-6 will last MUCH longer.
Joe


Here's a video of the complete system running clean in the test stand. All sensors and equipment operational. Shifting through the gears and all. No DTCs and even stuck the instrument cluster in for yucks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7nnYINIXDA

I'm not trying to lead anyone dow the primrose path but it is very doable and I've tried to explain as much as I can on my thread so others won't have to go through quite the learning curve that I did.
 
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Steve83

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Steve83, I don't see any info on your posted link where you took an OBD II engine/tranny/transfer and swapped them into a vehicle with no wiring to support them ahead of time. I see where you replaced one OBD II engine with another, not a big deal in my book.
Look again; specifically in the album in my tan CV's registry called "OBD-II Swap". A '94 CV is EEC-IV, so I've never swapped one OBD-II engine for another. The t-case has nothing to do with the engine management (other than a couple of simple logical inputs), so the fact that it's in a car is moot.
For example, he most likely does not have:
1. Dual exhaust.
2. Catalytic converters.
3. HEGO sensors before and after the cats.
4. Etc... Things that need to be added to support an OBD II engine and the associated engine controls.
Why are you bringing up dual exhaust? That's not part of this swap in any way. And since the exhaust will be custom no matter what: welding in cats & a couple of HEGO bungs (if there aren't any in the ex.mans.) will take a couple of extra seconds. Your 'etc' is only everything I've already been saying.
You may think it's a lot easier to add all these things to the install, but it's not.
Maybe not for YOU, but it has never been a problem for me.
So now you're going to tell us all about adding the appropriate resistor in the circuit...
Not a chance. I think that's a waste of money, gas, time, & effort. I have ALWAYS said to make it work as close to factory as possible.
 
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hyghlndr

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Did not mean to stir-up any problems.....I am considering a conversion with a complete motor, EFI, and auto trans. I have BASIC skills and appreciate the feedback on the most straight forward conversion. To this point most of my work has been plug and play & unbolt-bolt type work. I had originally planned on finding a 89-93 Mustang and swapping it over but I did not know if some other car/truck would be a better option.
 
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