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351W Rebuild - IT'S ALIVE!!!!!

Nightstick

Bronco guy
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
2,929
Starting at about post 20 I decided what I was going to do with this motor, which was rebuild it myself, and add EFI and serp.

I'm almost at the point that I'll be starting the engine rebuild for my rig. I have a 351w from an 89 E350 (at least that's what the guy I bought it from said) that I'll be working with. I have an understanding of how the things work, but no knowledge about what works well with what. The two products listed below are what I'm considering purchasing and installing. I'm not concerned with the cost (don't get the impression that I have money to burn, I just wanna do it right the first time) I'm just hoping what I choose will be right for the job. I don't plan on doing any extreme rock crawling, but there will be some. I'll also be taking it through some mud, and being able to smoke the tires is always a plus. I've read several threads talking about RV cams, etc. Are those necessary for light to moderate trails, or will another one do just fine (such as the ones in the kit)? The edelbrock top end data claims 400hp/412lbft torque (at higher RPM of course)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP176-311/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2092/
 
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mcdobson

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
401
Loc.
Sacramento
Those are nice heads. They don't give you much info on the cam, I suspect it is geared more for HP than torque. The air gap manifold is pretty tall so you might be looking at a body lift or hood.
As far as the engine kit, talk to the machinist/engine builder. They can generally get a kit that suits your specific purpose. If you buy the kit from the machine shop and let them build your engine then they will most likely stand behind the engine if there is a problem and most shops charge a higher labor rate if they don't get the parts sale.
 

SnwMnkys

Sr. Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
524
Loc.
Orem, Utah
The specs on that cam with that kit should be.

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift 224
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift 234
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.496 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.520 in.
Lobe Separation (degrees) 110

Probably a little big. Id feel more comfortable putting that cam behind a 408 rather than a stock stroke 351w.
 

SDlivin

Sr. Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
781
Loc.
San Diego
I did a similar Edelbrock top end package on my 350 s/b in my 68 camaro, the '435' hp version with the hydraulic cam. X2 on the fact that I think they are built more for HP then Torque. The camshafts are aggressive, my S/B sounds/runs like a B/B now. You'll also need to pick up some pushrods and lifters, as I don't believe they are included in the kit that I purchased for mine. If they are not on your's, pick up the lifters first (be sure to get the ones specifically for your camshaft, hydraulic ,roller, etc....) then use an adjustable pushrod length checker to figure out what pushrod lengths you'll need to purchase.

Overall I was happy with the edelbrock product, but if I didn't want the experience and satisfaction of bulding it myself, I probably would have went with a crate motor with the specs I wanted and saved myself A LOT of time, frustration and even money.
 
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Nightstick

Nightstick

Bronco guy
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Feb 6, 2010
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...if I didn't want the experience and satisfaction of bulding it myself, I probably would have went with a crate motor with the specs I wanted and saved myself A LOT of time, frustration and even money.

I hear ya on that. But like you, I want the experience of doing it myself.

There's a thread going right now wth dyno numbers thats kinda depressing. I don't expect to get 400hp on the ground but jeez:cry: (http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162722)

Is there a website out there that can help me understand what all the numbers for cams are? I was just looking at cranecams site and all that stuff is confusing to me. What makes one better for one application than another?
It would be a lot easier if there was a Summit or Jegs page dedicated for off road vehicles.
 

mcdobson

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
401
Loc.
Sacramento
Yes cam shafts are confusing. not only do you need to understand the specs but also understand their effect on all the other parts in an engine. That is why I always suggest talking to a trusted engine builder in your area. A custom performance engine from a reputable engine builder will always out perform a cookie cutter crate engine.
 

badmuttstang

redneck grease monkey
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
2,807
I ran that cam in my 70 mustang back in high school its a great cam for a mild built 351 but its a little high in rpms. Definitely works better with free flowing heads so the combo should work fine but as for the rebuild kit as said it might be cheaper in long run to buy a short block take a look at late model resto's LRS6009ea it a complete 351 short block and its a roller cam block so if you chose to you could run a little higher lift cam with lower duration to get you lower rpms and more vacuum its 999.99 shipping will run you 75 to your door.
 

LilRedBronco

Sr. Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
428
Loc.
Belmont, California
I looked at a "kit" for my 302 from Summit and when all was said and done the racing part of Summit Racing was the wrong kind of racing. That is a "street and strip" set up we need the "grunt and tug" set up.

I went with an RV cam edl performer heads and intake and 600cfm carb and am very happy that I stayed away from the high RPM stuff.
 
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Nightstick

Nightstick

Bronco guy
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I think Dobson talked me into having an engine shop do the work. There's a local shop that has a good reputation so I'll go talk to them.
 
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Nightstick

Nightstick

Bronco guy
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Update (sorta)

I talked to the engine shop previously mentioned. The owner quoted me a ballpark figure of around $3000 for the following:

-Bore .30 over
-393 stroker forged pistons/crank
-rebuild top end (I'm pretty sure I have E7 heads which someone said are pretty good so I'll probably stay with those)
-Not sure if that price includes the cam
-They time it and tune the carb and run it on an engine dyno

I still have to provide the headers, ignition, intake, carb, and other engine accessories

This particluar shop has a very good reputation

Fair Price???
 
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Ratch

Sr. Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
694
If that price includes assembly and dyno tune it sounds like a hellova deal. Even if you do the final assembly it is still a good price. Stroker kits by themselves are usually a grand give or take. I made the mistake of trying to pick a cam once without really understanding how it would affect power in the rpm range I needed, was a dog until 50-60mph then it took off, not really what is desirable in a bronco or any 4x4.
 
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Nightstick

Nightstick

Bronco guy
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Feb 6, 2010
Messages
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If that price includes assembly and dyno tune it sounds like a hellova deal. Even if you do the final assembly it is still a good price. Stroker kits by themselves are usually a grand give or take. I made the mistake of trying to pick a cam once without really understanding how it would affect power in the rpm range I needed, was a dog until 50-60mph then it took off, not really what is desirable in a bronco or any 4x4.

As I understood it that does include assembly and dyno. The stroker kit we're gonna use is a SCAT and cost is $1100. He explained that aftermarket heads (i.e. trickflow, edelbrock) would give me more top end power but wouldn't be very useful for low-end torque so why waste the money.
 

mcdobson

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
401
Loc.
Sacramento
Sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Price sounds good, parts choices are sound, dyno tuning is great.
The price on the kit sounds too low for a forged crank. The Scat cast steel crank is still a good piece though.
Until you get to know and trust your engine builder, just make sure you are getting the parts and service you are paying for.
 
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Nightstick

Nightstick

Bronco guy
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Sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Price sounds good, parts choices are sound, dyno tuning is great.
The price on the kit sounds too low for a forged crank. The Scat cast steel crank is still a good piece though.
Until you get to know and trust your engine builder, just make sure you are getting the parts and service you are paying for.

I believe you're right. I've looked at the kits from summit and I'm pretty sure it's a cast crank. The builder has been around town for probably 40-50 years and said he keeps customers informed and I could stop in any time I like to check on progress. Only problem I might run into is any kind of warranty (which I forgot to ask about). I'm sure some of the parts I might be able to find cheaper, but unless he orders them he might not warranty the engine. I'm planning on going with a Holley Truck Avenger Carb (EFI will come later), edelbrock intake, Mallory ignition.

Am I wrong by staying with the factory heads?
 

SnwMnkys

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Apr 7, 2004
Messages
524
Loc.
Orem, Utah
I believe you're right. I've looked at the kits from summit and I'm pretty sure it's a cast crank. The builder has been around town for probably 40-50 years and said he keeps customers informed and I could stop in any time I like to check on progress. Only problem I might run into is any kind of warranty (which I forgot to ask about). I'm sure some of the parts I might be able to find cheaper, but unless he orders them he might not warranty the engine. I'm planning on going with a Holley Truck Avenger Carb (EFI will come later), edelbrock intake, Mallory ignition.

Am I wrong by staying with the factory heads?

Yes I think youre wrong in wanting to stay with factory heads, especially with a stroker motor, youre just going to choke it. In my opinion, old factory heads are a choke point in small block Ford motors.

GT40 heads are probably a good example of how Small Ford heads should of started out. They flow decent for what they are, but dont hurt the low end.

The GM LS based motors kick ass because their heads are good. The 5.3 and 6.0 in the trucks are good pulling motors, but have no problem revving when they need to.
 

mcdobson

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401
Loc.
Sacramento
Your stock heads aren't going to limit you too bad for the purpose your engine is going to be built for, but good after market heads are always going to add power as long as you don't go so big that they kill your low end torque.
Let the engine builder check out your heads, if they are going to take a lot of work (money) to rebuild then look at other heads.
 
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Nightstick

Nightstick

Bronco guy
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Disassembly pics

So Pedestrian (Kurt) stopped by the other day and gave me some great insight and knowledge. I've blown up his phone with text messages ever since (Sorry). He gave me confidence to do this rebuild on my own, which is great because I'll be able to add the serp system and EFI with the money I'll save. I've been looking at EFI articles and threads for about two days straight and it doesn't seem to get any easier to understand, I'll make it though.

I started tearing down the 351w I got, and noticed a few areas of concern. I won't be using the lower intake and I'm still undecided on the heads. I'll be picking up a 96 Exporer motor in the near future and had planned on using the GT40 heads off that, I have E7TE heads from the motor I'm tearing apart. (I'm aware of the mounting hole mod) As you can see in the below pics there's some rust/pitting in the right front intake ports on the heads. It concerned me greatly at first, but once I got the head off the cylinder walls didn't look bad at all. I still plan on taking it to an engine shop to be more closely examined but from y'alls experience what caused that?

I'm also considering dropping the explorer motor as is (as long as it's in good shape) and taking the time to build up the 351 into 393 or 408 BEAST! Any thoughts on that?
 

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mcdobson

Sr. Member
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Jul 28, 2008
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Sacramento
The rust is not unusual, most people don't change their coolant enough. Just have the shop clean the block real well.
The stroked engines work very well. The 393 can be done with stock pistons and rods, the 408 takes all after market parts. Either makes a nice engine.
The stroked motors do take a bit more work however, especially if you are doing it your self. The block has to be clearanced to miss the rods and the rotating assembly must be balanced and you have to be careful of piston to valve clearance. Most of the kit manufacturers sell a "balanced assembly" but I have run into a number of them that were not as balanced as you would expect.
 

mavereq

Bronco Guru
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
2,092
i went with afr 185's for my 408 and was really happy with the results. i started a thread on it on here. it pulled 492 ft lbs of torque at 3000 rpm's.

so add one more vote for the aftermarket heads
 
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Nightstick

Nightstick

Bronco guy
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Feb 6, 2010
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So I got the motor almost all the way torn down today. I still have to remove the lifters, cam, and freeze plugs but that's about it. This brings me to a couple questions. The book I got for rebuilding doesn't thoroughly explain all the steps involved in tear down. It will simply say "remove harmonic balancer" and not mention you need a puller. Easy fix but still kinda frustrating for a rebuild virgin. (Needless to say I was texting Pedestrian throughout the day, I hope he's got an unlimited text plan.) I figured I'd leave him alone for a while and just post a question on here, and since it's pushing 100 degrees it's time to take a break anyway. I feel silly for asking some of these questions, but you gotta learn somehow right...

The book says "remove cam and lifters" it says to remove the lifters first, which makes sense, but for the life of me I can't get the darn things out. I could probably force them out but I don't wanna break anything. What's the secret here?

Onto the main bearings. Again the book has pics of worn bearings showing copper, which they say is caused by excessive heat and viscosity breakdown of the oil. As you can see in the below pics I too have badly worn bearings but everything looks okay on the crank, and all the connecting rod bearings were good. Bearings will obviously be replaced, but am I looking at a more serious problem like having to replace the crank?

I also noticed some discoloration on the cam, again probably caused by excessive heat. From what I can see of the bottom part of the lifters everything looks okay there though. I'll be replacing the cam and probably lifters anyway, but is there a more serious problem I need to be concerned with?

Sorry for the poor image quality, the wife had the camera so I used my cell phone. I also threw in a pic of the block cast number so you guys could save it and answer the bi-weekly "how do I tell what year engine I have" question
 

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