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Which Valve Springs?

John Marinan

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Aug 9, 2009
Messages
680
Loc.
Durango CO.
They have a good tech line, I'd call them with all your info. If you're not taking off the heads, you could use the old ones. I would suggest that you use Crower cam Saver lifters, they are as good as they say, and the high lube really helps during break in. Check ebay, I got them for about $90.00 delivered.
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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Joined
May 19, 2010
Messages
826
Good point, I'll give them a call and no, I don't plan on taking off the heads so ideally I could reuse my springs or not fuss with them.

The cam kit that ordered comes with new lifters that are paired with the cam so i'll be good to go there.
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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May 19, 2010
Messages
826
I called the tech guys at Edelbrock and the answer was a flat, "yes you must replace the valve springs when installing a new cam so it wears correctly". Since I am 70' year the Standard, 5822's or the 5896 Kit (also standard) are correct springs for anyone who may be doing this.

Andy
 

blubuckaroo

Grease Monkey
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
11,795
Loc.
Ridgefield WA
Whatever springs you pick, you need to find out what pressure is needed. Take the heads to a shop and have them shimmed properly. A machine shop will have the tools to measure the height and calculate the pressure. It only cost me $20 last time for two heads. Too important to cheap out on.
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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May 19, 2010
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826
Whatever springs you pick, you need to find out what pressure is needed. Take the heads to a shop and have them shimmed properly. A machine shop will have the tools to measure the height and calculate the pressure. It only cost me $20 last time for two heads. Too important to cheap out on.

The Edelbrock site says 90lbs

What are the tools called that are needed? I love having excuses to buy new tools.
 

SDlivin

Sr. Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
781
Loc.
San Diego
Interested in hearing what other engine builders say about the "yes you must replace the valve springs when installing a new cam so it wears correctly".

I would think it's one of those... would be a good idea, but not necessarily a 'must'.

I do believe that that cam does mention that you cannot run dual springs in the valves, or something like that.
 

patrickmitton

Jr. Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
70
Loc.
kerby Or.
If you have the heads in a machine shop save yourself time and money by haveing the heads threaded for chevy screw in studs, Otherwise they will pull out. Once you start shimming the springs-your getting serious pressure built up.....I have some Horror pictures of when the shit hits the fan......when a piston-meets Mr.valve and Mr.Rod And Mr. Block And nobody gets along....It happened on a HP 289 200HP areally nice motor it was..and I didn't spend the extra 80-90 bucks..
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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826
The heads are currently attached in this case..I could be wrong, but it seems a bit extreme to go through all of that just for a very mild cam swap. I am really interested (like SDLivin) to hear if the new valve springs are really needed for the performer cam or if the guy at Edelbrock was feeding me a line from the Marketing guide book.
 

DirtDonk

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Messages
47,355
While it's a little bit of CYA for Edelbrock and every other cam manufacturer, and a way of possibly making a bit more money (and why not?), it's pretty much a given that you need to match your springs to your new cam, AND that if you're using the original (and potentially high mileage and weak) valve springs, you should always change them.

So will the old ones work? Sure.
Will they last? Maybe. But maybe not too.
Aftermarket cams usually have a completely different lobe profile and put completely different stresses on the rest of the valvetrain. And when a newer, better cam gets put int, often as not the owner feels the need to use it to good effect by letting the right foot do the talking. At least for awhile anyway, you might be having a bit more fun and "seeing if the cam is all it's supposed to be" and all that.
A lot of springs will fatigue quickly and not be able to let the engine rev up to it's potential. You might find that a set of springs that were good for 5000 rpm with the stock cam, will only to to 4500, or even 4000 after a short life with the new cam.
And, there are lots of broken valve springs littering the shops and garages of America because someone didn't follow the advice of every cam manufacturer out there and upgrade the springs.

Bottom line? You can definitely use the old springs. And since you say it's a "mild" cam, they might even live a long and happy life. But also be aware of the above possibilities.

So which cam is it? What specs?

Paul
 
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DirtDonk

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Oh, and am I just an old fuddy-duddy that likes to follow the rules because it makes him feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Yep. That's me.
But I also hate pulling things apart again when I could be driving it. And I especially hate changing cams twice. And especially in a Bronco.

Paul
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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May 19, 2010
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Good advice. I did end up ordering the spring kit after all. It's the Edelbrock 2122 Performer cam

ENGINE: FORD 289-302 V8
RPM RANGE: Idle-5500

Duration at 0.006" Lift: Intake: 270° Exhaust: 280°
Duration at 0.050" Lift: Intake: 204° Exhaust: 214°
Lift at Cam: Intake: 0.280" Exhaust: 0.295"
Lift at Valve: Intake: 0.448" Exhaust: 0.472"
Timing at 0.050" lift: Open Close
Intake: 5° ATDC 29° ABDC
Exhaust: 44° BBDC 10° BTDC
Centerlines: Lobe Separation - 112° Intake Centerline - 107°
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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Joined
May 19, 2010
Messages
826
And I agree with you. Even though the engine/current springs only have 72k on them they are 41 years old and weren't made for the new cam. One of the reasons I was asking was because it seemed that so many people just do the cam and lifters and leave it at that. Sort of a plug n play type of deal. Since it is all apart I might as well do it right and put in the matched springs.

Is there a specific tool used for measuring and installing the springs? I'm sure the instruction manual will say what is needed, but I have not received the springs yet. Never done a set before although it seems rather simple.

......

But probably catastrophic if messed up ;)
 

DirtDonk

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With that cam, I'm glad you're going with new springs. While it's not a super high-lift unit, it's a fairly decent duration. And certainly way more than the original one was, in both categories. Don't know about yours specifically, but most EB's didn't like to rev over 5000 rpm even when they were young. I'd bet there are a few that start running out of steam at 4000 nowadays. New springs are your key to happiness!

For the height, I've always just used a dial-caliper (most have an extension to check depth/height) to check installed height. There are specialized tools, but the dial-caliper has so many other uses that it's a worthy purchase if you don't already have one.

There is a specific tool to verify the spring rate at a given height, but it's a specialized one-use kind of tool. And though it's not 100% kosher to do so, most people just install the springs at the right height and call it good. Kind of trusting the manufacturing process and the Q/C people to send out only perfect springs.
I've used them, but mainly for checking the older valve springs during a mild re-fresh, or valve job where the cam was being retained.
And also more often way-back, when buying new springs through the aftermarket wasn't quite so easy and inexpensive. Which sometimes meant just going down to the dealer, getting stock springs and maybe shimming them up to gain a bit more stiffness and a few extra rpm.
This was not perfect, but cams hadn't changed quite so radically as they have in the last 30 years.

Trusting that the new springs are all perfect and consistent will come back to bite you once in a blue moon, but they usually are pretty good about being within the spec range. So if you get them set at the right height, you're "probably" good to go.
One of the more prolific builders here, like bmc and a few others, will hopefully chime in and say whether that's good practice, or if in fact they've run across a lot of bum springs in their experiences.

You'll also need a spring compressor tool. The nice ones for use when the heads are off can be fairly expensive, but you're going to be using one of the lever type for use with the head installed. Probably other types available nowadays, but most should be fairly simple and inexpensive. Relatively.

One more thing you'll need is a way to keep the valve up inside the guide. This is usually a simple fitting to screw into the spark plug hole and apply compressed air to fill the combustion chamber.
There are other types too, but this is the most common, probably the least expensive (other than just stuffing something in there!) and easy to use.

I think that's all the main things. Someone else will add anything I've missed.

have fun!

Paul
 

SDlivin

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Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
781
Loc.
San Diego
Your going this far, may as well pick up a Small Block Ford Engine book. I've seen them at the local auto stores here and there or in O'side there is a Speed Shop that has some.

In my Camaro when I swapped out cam's I swapped out to Alum heads as well.
On the Bronco when I swapped out Cams, left the heads and valve springs on. Engine was maybe 2-3k from a recent rebuild, so I think I am fine. Also, the Cam instructions on mine didn't mention having to install matching valve springs, only that I could not use the dual/double spring set-up.
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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May 19, 2010
Messages
826
On order :)

http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/How_To_Rebuild_SmallBlock_Ford_Engines/Bronco_Books


Your going this far, may as well pick up a Small Block Ford Engine book. I've seen them at the local auto stores here and there or in O'side there is a Speed Shop that has some.

In my Camaro when I swapped out cam's I swapped out to Alum heads as well.
On the Bronco when I swapped out Cams, left the heads and valve springs on. Engine was maybe 2-3k from a recent rebuild, so I think I am fine. Also, the Cam instructions on mine didn't mention having to install matching valve springs, only that I could not use the dual/double spring set-up.
 

blubuckaroo

Grease Monkey
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
11,795
Loc.
Ridgefield WA
To shim the springs properly, you need a valve spring micrometer and a valve spring scale. That's the only way you will know what the closed pressure will be. I used a new set of springs rated at 110 lbs that only came up to 90 lbs. We shimmed them to the required 100 lbs. Like stated before, what's a few dollars at this point?
 

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Adarcy

Adarcy

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May 19, 2010
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I've got the new valve springs on order so here's the way I see it. I could:

A. Pull the heads and take them to shop with my new springs and have them installed correctly.

B. Install my cam and drive the bronco to shop to have the new springs done professionally. Please let me know just how bad of an idea this is.

C. Order new heads that already have the right springs in them - $$

D. Convince someone here on the board that has done them to come help a guy out in exchange for beer and Bronco talk

E. Buy the tools and attempt myself - The micrometer is cheap, but the scale is more than a new set of heads...

F. Scrap this whole project (bummer) and wait until my engine truly needs a rebuild and do all of this then.


I am unfortunately leaning towards the last option and chalking this up to a learning experience of "don't order the part until you've really thought it through".

If I can get away with my option B and install the cam and drive it somewhere and get the springs done for under $150 I think i'd still do it. Otherwise I think the money would be better spent elsewhere (or just saved).
 

DirtDonk

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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,355
From the basic discussion, I'd say the best route is to take the heads off. My reasoning is that if you're already going to do the whole cam swap thing yourself, a few extra bolts and a pair of head-gaskets is minimal labor, and then you can take them down to a shop to have them changed out.
Of course the "coolest" option would be to spend on a new set of heads, but that defeats the purpose of a little savings dollar-wise.
Now, by new, it doesn't have to be a new seat of aluminum AFR's or Edelbrocks of course. It could just be a quick exchange with a local head-rebuilder, so that might not be too expensive an option.
I haven't had it done lately, but I don't imagine a local machine shop would charge too awful much to simply swap out some valve springs. And if they're not too busy, they might even be able to do it the same day.

Some food for thought.

Paul

ps: You DO know that the cams don't just come out easily in an EB, right?
There's more to it, because the grille is in the way.
 
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Adarcy

Adarcy

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May 19, 2010
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826
Yeah

Grill, radiator, and just about everything in front. I'm comfortable with all of that part.
 
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