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Ball Joints why so dang tricky??!!

Rugby73

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
17
Loc.
Waynesville
Dana 44, putting in new ball joints, have clamp style press. Go in pretty good no worries there. Go to install new knuckles from Duff disc brake conversion and driver side goes in ok. Had to grind a bit off the lower axle yoke to clear stud sticking out of knuckle but no biggie. That side rotates/moves with about 5lbs of force (too light??). Go to the other side and go through the sequence... lower nut 70ft/lbs, install sleeve but, whoa it keeps going on in...hmm back off a little and decide to just install top nut. Kept checking knuckle movement as I torque down and it just keeps getting tighter. At 100 ft/lbs the knuckle moves but it sure feels like more than the recommended 25 lbs of pull maximum Ford recommends. I could not get the 40ft/lbs on the inner sleeve and the castle nut on top just screws on so far that a cotter pin is not even getting into one of the slots because the nut is so far down. This issue is all over the web but I haven't found a good solid answer as to why this is happening and how to fix when someone is (supposedly) following the recommended procedure. I'd hate to remove a new ball joint and try it and just hope it works. There's got to be a little trick I'm not doing...so who can help??
 

Timmy390

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
5,609
Loc.
Conway, AR
I'm about to install new ball joints (doing the all Ford D-brake conversion). What brand did you go with? I was considering NAPA which I'm told are MOOG just boxed for NAPA.

I see a very big gap in the price of these. Cheap store X brand $9.99 all the way up to $49.99. Just wondering if the quality of the joints have anything to do with success rate.

Tim
 
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Rugby73

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
17
Loc.
Waynesville
I had the original ones that came with the Duff kit...they were Federated auto parts I believe but the box was not specifically labeled so. Those went in the driver side which worked but is a lil too easy to turn the knuckle. I lost (how I don't know) the other set. So I went to Oreillys and picked up some more...heres where it got weird,, in the Duff set I had lost one snap ring so I needed to buy an upper and lower for the other side and and one extra (lower its cheaper to just get a snap ring, since the original ones had long rusted away)..Moog are expensive and last, but some guys stay away from them cause the upper (I believe)currently doesn't have a grease fitting and both tend to be real stiff adding to the problem I encountered. But i shelled out for the Moog lower (44.99) and went with a Master Pro upper(Taiwan made) for 12.99 cause I couldn't afford both Moog. Big difference in price but alas it is the cheap upper that gave me problems.
 
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broncnaz

Bronco Guru
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
24,341
Might try more torque on the lower 70-90 is the ford spec. Not sure what the minimum knuckle pull should be but 26 lbs is recommended max. if nothing works get a qaulitity upper ball joint for the other side most likely that cheapy is your main issue.
 
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Rugby73

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
17
Loc.
Waynesville
Might try more torque on the lower 70-90 is the ford spec. Not sure what the minimum knuckle pull should be but 26 lbs is recommended max. if nothing works get a qaulitity upper ball joint for the other side most likely that cheapy is your main issue.

yeah today I'm gonna throw it back together one more time and follow a trick I found on a CK5 group site and see if that works. But I'm leaning with you that the cheap ball joint is the prob. I feel (guessing) it is just out of spec on the taper and has the critical measurement right at the seating point for the shim but theres been know accounting for stretch (with a cheaper steel to boot). So when you draw up on that upper bolt presto-chango damn thing don't work. today all will be revealed and may the great Bronco gods shine upon me and my wrench.
 
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Rugby73

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
17
Loc.
Waynesville
I recently had a similar issue. Having owned my Bronco for 35 years, and in the process rebuilding it, frame off, as best possible. Replaced the ball joints with good ole made in USA Moog product. As noted, the upper sleeve tightened way past flush with the knuckle. Both the knuckle and axle housing are original. Swapped back the old sleeve with no difference. Preload and drag are in spec. But would like to see the sleeve central within the housing ear. Curious, are oversize sleeves available?

I've never seen oversize sleeves for the ford dana use but I think on some of the jeep or dodge guys vehicles the sleeve for the Dana is actually used as a camber? adjuster and they can be differet angles sizes etc. On the ford its just straight and intended to preload that balljoint. Funny thing is a Chrysler guy invented a preloaded ball joint in the 60's that avoided this stuff...what ever happpened to that thing?
 

adam05ford

Full Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
185
Loc.
San Marcos, Texas
The money you are paying for moog is just the name. In response to the moog in a NAPA box you are close to being correct. The less expensive Master Ride line of NAPA ball joints are very comparable the moog. The NAPA premium ball joint is far superior to moog. If you ever get a chance ask your local NAPA owner to show you a set of the ball joints taken apart (before they crimp the top plate in.) It is night and day difference in the quality of the joint.
 

mofoco1

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
1,474
Loc.
Clovis, CA
t1138_011512194300.jpg
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Pictures of the Napa Premiums. I have used these on all my EB's and on my F-350's and they work awesome and are greaseable. Depending on your axle shafts you may have to install the zerts when greasing and cap them when not as I have run into knocking the zerts off with the axle if they stick out too far, and I usually install the shortest zerts possible too. They tell you you don't have to use the snap rings, but I do and I get stainless ones to boot, no rust!...Mo
 

Timmy390

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
5,609
Loc.
Conway, AR
I've never seen oversize sleeves for the ford dana use but I think on some of the jeep or dodge guys vehicles the sleeve for the Dana is actually used as a camber? adjuster and they can be differet angles sizes etc.?

Yes and you can get those at NAPA. Should work for a Ford as well and from what I've read, will help correct camber issues.

In response to the moog in a NAPA box you are close to being correct. The less expensive Master Ride line of NAPA ball joints are very comparable the moog. The NAPA premium ball joint is far superior to moog.

Thanks for the info, good to know. I'm planning to use the NAPA premium for my upgrade.

Tim
 

73azbronco

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
7,796
agree with napa premium, by far best built joint I've seen lately.
 

rjrobin2002

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
2,662
t1138_011512194300.jpg
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t1139_012112111600.jpg
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Pictures of the Napa Premiums. I have used these on all my EB's and on my F-350's and they work awesome and are greaseable. Depending on your axle shafts you may have to install the zerts when greasing and cap them when not as I have run into knocking the zerts off with the axle if they stick out too far, and I usually install the shortest zerts possible too. They tell you you don't have to use the snap rings, but I do and I get stainless ones to boot, no rust!...Mo

Did yours come with the blue boots and stainless hardware?
 

mofoco1

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
1,474
Loc.
Clovis, CA
Blue boots yes they always have at least the last 10 years or so. No on the Stainless snap rings, called a couple of old school hardware store( you know the time that has crap no one else carry's) and asked if they had large SS snap rings first one I called did. You just have to hunt a bit. Good luck...Mo
 

mofoco1

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
1,474
Loc.
Clovis, CA
Forgot to say mine are 79 Bronco donor knuckles. I did have to grind a bit with a flap wheel on the inside as a part of the lower casting if I remember correctly would not allow the sleeve for the joint installer to seat properly and I couldn't get joint to engage as the sleeve was at an angle. A couple of minutes and a respray of the area took care of it and no loss in strength...Mo
 
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Rugby73

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
17
Loc.
Waynesville
Update on the ball joint issue for anyone who finds this link on a web search or from this site.... The ball joints themselves, both new and the old original ford ones measure out the same (installed) so what is the issue?...checked the top inserts and ahha! They are different. The old ones are a 16th wider and the compression gap was narrower (This may just be from losing tension from being installed for over 30 yrs but when I check the outside diameter on both old and new, that is the same, so I don't think that is why they are different. ) So basically that insert is too small and will compress too much inward due to the enlarged gap. Hence they screw in too far when installed and won't reach the 40lbs installation torque measurement. My guess is the part was made to accomodate various installations and an average best fit was used so they can sell the same part for multiple applications. Our loss their gain. I haven't had the chanceto complete the installation due to work commitments but when I do I will post it here as well to help whomever finds this.
 

Timmy390

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
5,609
Loc.
Conway, AR
Rugby73,

You buying new ball joints? I ask because you can just buy the inserts at NAPA for a couple bucks. I think I would try that before I pressed the joints out and new ones back in. Oh and the NAPA Prem joints are $47 each. Add tax and it's $200 plus out the door. I had to go home and lay down for a bit after buying mine........

Tim
 
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Rugby73

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
17
Loc.
Waynesville
Rugby73,

You buying new ball joints? I ask because you can just buy the inserts at NAPA for a couple bucks. I think I would try that before I pressed the joints out and new ones back in. Oh and the NAPA Prem joints are $47 each. Add tax and it's $200 plus out the door. I had to go home and lay down for a bit after buying mine........

Tim

No, I'm gonna try and stick with the Taiwan ones I put in and see how they do. But thats good news that I can get the inserts seperate, I did not know that. My plan is to reassemble with the old inserts but I may just try and buy new ones if I can get them by themselves. I am just out of money on this project and that will help!
 

toddz69

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Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
10,079
Oh and the NAPA Prem joints are $47 each. Add tax and it's $200 plus out the door. I had to go home and lay down for a bit after buying mine........

Top tip - the Napa Premiums (blue boots) are made by Raybestos. I bought 4new Raybestos joints off RockAuto several months ago for $30 and $32 each. Helps the bottom line quite a bit.

Other than the Synergy joints, I think they're about the best you can buy.

Todd Z.
 

scott71

Jr. Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
56
Loc.
Clarksburg, MD
Update on the ball joint issue for anyone who finds this link on a web search or from this site.... The ball joints themselves, both new and the old original ford ones measure out the same (installed) so what is the issue?...checked the top inserts and ahha! They are different. The old ones are a 16th wider and the compression gap was narrower (This may just be from losing tension from being installed for over 30 yrs but when I check the outside diameter on both old and new, that is the same, so I don't think that is why they are different. ) So basically that insert is too small and will compress too much inward due to the enlarged gap. Hence they screw in too far when installed and won't reach the 40lbs installation torque measurement. My guess is the part was made to accomodate various installations and an average best fit was used so they can sell the same part for multiple applications. Our loss their gain. I haven't had the chanceto complete the installation due to work commitments but when I do I will post it here as well to help whomever finds this.


Any luck? I am so curious. Spent 4 hrs with same problem today. Drivers side went without a hitch. Used moogs but did not replace the upper sleeve( it looked to be in really good shape) no problems. Pass/side - put in new sleeve and tried to set preload and that damn sleeve just kept going down. Finally just put the top nut on and torqued. Get it all back together and then the joint on the axle just hits the bottom nut and won't turn. Looking forward to hearing how you fixed it.
 
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Rugby73

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
17
Loc.
Waynesville
Any luck? I am so curious. Spent 4 hrs with same problem today. Drivers side went without a hitch. Used moogs but did not replace the upper sleeve( it looked to be in really good shape) no problems. Pass/side - put in new sleeve and tried to set preload and that damn sleeve just kept going down. Finally just put the top nut on and torqued. Get it all back together and then the joint on the axle just hits the bottom nut and won't turn. Looking forward to hearing how you fixed it.

Okay got it. It is the insert on the new Taiwan ball joints that was the wrong dimensions. I used my old original insert which, as I stated above, was thicker basically. So my process was,
1. Place knuckle on yoke
2. Start lower nut on to lower ball joint. And just barely started the original insert onto top one just to help line things up.
3. Got my floor jack and snugged up the whole assembly by getting it to lift up under the knuckle. Not too much, not trying to lift vehicle, just a few taps of the handle once it made contact. This also helps keep the lower nut from spinning. Another trick to keep the nut from spinning, is to place a ratchet with a screwdriver attachment on there and set that into the groove of the stud of that lower ball joint (if there is one, some don't have it) while you take your 1 1/8" box end wrench and tighten the nut while that ratchet/screwdirver deal keeps the stud from turning. Once it gets tight then it won't spin and you can torque to 70 ft lbs.
4. Tightened the top nut insert to 40 ft/lbs. This time it didn't go down so far!
5. Put on the top nut and (this time) I just tightened it to 95ft/lbs not 100 just because i was nervous.
When I was done the turning force was only about 10-20 lbs of pull. Much less than before. Before I had to grab the knuckle and jerk it and pull back with my body to get it to start to move. Now I just grab with one hand and its snug but moves freely. Before it was definitely more than the 25 lb limit.
I hope this helps!
 
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