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Let's talk lock out hubs

CA Monkey

Jr. Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
106
Loc.
Tracy
Those Yukons appear to have all the same details..and hence strength..of the the all-steel factory select able hubs. But boy aren't they proud of them with that price?

Just bought a set of 35 spline for my dana 60... My brain still hurts from having to shell out $350 for a pair of Yukons.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,833
...

Frankly..I've always considered the fairly weak aftermarket hubs to be a decent "fuse" to prevent (sometimes) carnage in other more expensive axle components.

Be careful about that idea. Dana 44 Detroit lockers are well known to blow themselves up when a U-joint lets loose and the shock wave bounces back up the shaft into the diff.
 
OP
OP
Authorizedcc

Authorizedcc

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Messages
91
Do the people selling the brake conversion also happen to sell those hubs?
Lol I've been thinking about that also because there's nothing wrong with my stock hubs. So until something happens to them, that's when I'll consider buying new ones.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
The reason the Warn hubs and others became popular is they are easier to turn than the Spicer hubs, but the trade off to get that is they are weaker than the Spicers.

Weaker for sure, but in my opinion a well maintained Spicer hub is one of the easiest to turn there is. At least here in the warmer and dryer climes. That might have a lot to do with it in fact. But in a colder and wetter location, I'm sure they can get gummed up and built up with junk between the plastic knob, the o-ring and the outer metal housing. The periodic maintenance being done more often should still fix that, but the old cure was to use the handles on your pair of pliers, or one of those special tools they used to advertise in the magazines. But they're still super easy to turn if properly maintained.
I just wonder how often they are maintained, or were back in the day?

Buyers either did not know they were weaker or did not care.

I'd have to say both. I bet most don't know (at least until they see one of these discussions) and many just don't care because they're cool and new looking. And successful marketing being what it is, many just think having a Warn part is cool.
The other scenario of course nowadays is cost and availability. If someone buys a Bronco-project-in-a-box and it does not have lockouts, stock ones are not prevalent and Yukons are not cheap. Warn and the others then become extremely good looking options.

I don't know about the economy version of the mile marker, but the premium version I had were pretty sweet.

Definitely agree with that too. Hopefully they haven't changed that, but I have not seen a set in awhile.
With Warn though, the standard version (#9790) is functionally the same as the Premium (#20990). Only the knob section changes as far as I know.
The plastic knob is not considered as nice as the metal one, but frankly I much prefer it because it's easier to grip, softer on my delicate fingers, and only takes a 1/4 turn to lock.
Versus the sharper edged and shallower metal knob and 3/4-ish turn of the Premium.

The standard hub is basically what Ford used on their Broncos and 150's after about '80 or so, when Warn became the OE supplier to Ford.

Nice part was the pre-selector. If the teeth didn't line up, a spring put pressure on them until you moved and they would drop right in. Same thing for getting out, turn the knob and drive. If it was bound it didn't matter. As soon as the bind was gone the spring would unlock them.

Yep, very nice design feature. I think most of the aftermarket manufacturers tried to do that to one extent or another.

Asking because when i do the disc brake conversion, they say to replace the hubs. Why?

Well here's why I came back to this thread. I wrote a long-winded dissertation on why I thought that was and was sure I hit REPLY, but when it did not show up I got disgusted (well, frustrated anyway) and walked away for a couple of days!

I believe that whoever said that dcc, is wrong. And if it was us, I apologize for the misinformation regarding this. Pretty sure we no longer state that in print form in the instructions or on the website. In fact the instructions even have a section clearly stating how to reassemble the kit with the stock lockouts.
But the bad info has been around for a long time. Hard to kill old rumors it seems.
From my point of view, I think we still hear it for three reasons:
Ignorance of the facts, old habits that die hard (kind of the same thing as the first one basically), and trying to sell extra parts.

We won't do it for that last reason at WH, even though of course we love to sell parts, and ultimately that's what keeps us in business. But we prefer selling them because a customer wants them or needs them, not because we're trying to up-sell something.
So again, if it came from us, sorry about the bad info.

I remember years ago we used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty sure that stemmed from the fact that everybody thought you could not use the stock hubs due to the outer axle snap-ring not being able to fit. But really, think about it, how often can you fit the snap ring even with aftermarket hubs!
In fact, that's a question for all of you who've done the brake conversions. Were you able to install the stock hubs? Were you able to get the snap ring in place? And if you used aftermarket hubs, were you still able to get it in place?
I hope many will see this and post up their results.

So that's the story I remember. There could be other reasons that a vendor would indicate the stock lockouts won't work, but I don't know what they may be.
Think about this too, that the main bearing splined hub, AND the rotor, are both stock Ford parts. Only the spindles and calipers with their mounting parts make this a GM-based setup. The hubs and rotors, along with wheel bearings and rear #4250 seals are all what you would purchase if you had a stock '76 or '77 Bronco.
So why would the stock lockouts not work? No reason I can think of unless the spindle was too long. But as far as I know, in most cases at least, the stock locking mechanism still fits with the new spindle.

Regarding the snap ring though, another question would be how many people have simply installed Warn or other aftermarket locking hubs on their stock drum brakes and still could not re-use the snap ring? Maybe 90% or more could not re-use it?
It seems that whether you go disc brakes or just add aftermarket hubs, most have a very hard time reinstalling any snap ring on the axle shaft.
The spindles are a tiny bit longer, so the stock groove is not exposed. The Warn hubs were likely designed to fit a Chevy and the folks at Warn were not aware that Ford and maybe Dodge used a different setup. And never fixed it, which means that the inner locking mechanism is longer, which hides the groove. The GM axle shafts locate the snap ring farther out so it's not an issue with them.

I hope that whoever you bought your kit from was going from mis-information then, rather than just trying to take another $100 bucks from you for no reason.
There are salesman that are convinced of course, that anything aftermarket is better than factory. In this case that's wrong, but it's hard to educate everyone once they've been indoctrinated over many years to that fact. Which is why the bottom line is that it's up to us as consumers to know what we need and be able to tell the person on the other end of the phone that.

Which is why they invented the internet...%)

If you look at the locking hubs there is no different part number for disc vs drum.

Exactly. But that makes me wonder... I've never heard of it, but I wonder if the stock Spicer lockouts for a GM vehicle were also slightly different from a stock Spicer on a Ford? Never compared the inner gears from one to the other, but now you've got me thinking.
Which is a dangerous thing if I'm near a keyboard.

The only issue with stock lockouts is they can stick in the disengaged position. Too much grease, old sticky grease, or a damaged wheel hub can create more resistance than the spring can overcome. Turn the knob, and the clutch ring doesn't slide out to engage the axle sleeve.
As routine maintenance, clean the old grease out, check that the clutch ring moves smoothly in the hub, and reassemble with just enough new grease to protect the parts from moisture.

I'd have to say almost the same thing of the aftermarket lockouts. As they come out of the box and get installed, they're fine. But I've seen way to many people pull them apart and pack them with too much grease and cause the same trouble.
I guess I should just be happy that someone was trying to do maintenance! Unfortunately that kind of maintenance is not always recommended for the aftermarket parts.
Ultimately much of how well things work is up to us.

Do the people selling the brake conversion also happen to sell those hubs?

'Fraid so in most cases.
So you have to rely on the underlying honesty of the folks selling the stuff to not try to stuff you with more parts that you don't need.

Paul
 
OP
OP
Authorizedcc

Authorizedcc

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Messages
91
Weaker for sure, but in my opinion a well maintained Spicer hub is one of the easiest to turn there is. At least here in the warmer and dryer climes. That might have a lot to do with it in fact. But in a colder and wetter location, I'm sure they can get gummed up and built up with junk between the plastic knob, the o-ring and the outer metal housing. The periodic maintenance being done more often should still fix that, but the old cure was to use the handles on your pair of pliers, or one of those special tools they used to advertise in the magazines. But they're still super easy to turn if properly maintained.
I just wonder how often they are maintained, or were back in the day?



I'd have to say both. I bet most don't know (at least until they see one of these discussions) and many just don't care because they're cool and new looking. And successful marketing being what it is, many just think having a Warn part is cool.
The other scenario of course nowadays is cost and availability. If someone buys a Bronco-project-in-a-box and it does not have lockouts, stock ones are not prevalent and Yukons are not cheap. Warn and the others then become extremely good looking options.



Definitely agree with that too. Hopefully they haven't changed that, but I have not seen a set in awhile.
With Warn though, the standard version (#9790) is functionally the same as the Premium (#20990). Only the knob section changes as far as I know.
The plastic knob is not considered as nice as the metal one, but frankly I much prefer it because it's easier to grip, softer on my delicate fingers, and only takes a 1/4 turn to lock.
Versus the sharper edged and shallower metal knob and 3/4-ish turn of the Premium.

The standard hub is basically what Ford used on their Broncos and 150's after about '80 or so, when Warn became the OE supplier to Ford.



Yep, very nice design feature. I think most of the aftermarket manufacturers tried to do that to one extent or another.



Well here's why I came back to this thread. I wrote a long-winded dissertation on why I thought that was and was sure I hit REPLY, but when it did not show up I got disgusted (well, frustrated anyway) and walked away for a couple of days!

I believe that whoever said that dcc, is wrong. And if it was us, I apologize for the misinformation regarding this. Pretty sure we no longer state that in print form in the instructions or on the website. In fact the instructions even have a section clearly stating how to reassemble the kit with the stock lockouts.
But the bad info has been around for a long time. Hard to kill old rumors it seems.
From my point of view, I think we still hear it for three reasons:
Ignorance of the facts, old habits that die hard (kind of the same thing as the first one basically), and trying to sell extra parts.

We won't do it for that last reason at WH, even though of course we love to sell parts, and ultimately that's what keeps us in business. But we prefer selling them because a customer wants them or needs them, not because we're trying to up-sell something.
So again, if it came from us, sorry about the bad info.

I remember years ago we used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty sure that stemmed from the fact that everybody thought you could not use the stock hubs due to the outer axle snap-ring not being able to fit. But really, think about it, how often can you fit the snap ring even with aftermarket hubs!
In fact, that's a question for all of you who've done the brake conversions. Were you able to install the stock hubs? Were you able to get the snap ring in place? And if you used aftermarket hubs, were you still able to get it in place?
I hope many will see this and post up their results.

So that's the story I remember. There could be other reasons that a vendor would indicate the stock lockouts won't work, but I don't know what they may be.
Think about this too, that the main bearing splined hub, AND the rotor, are both stock Ford parts. Only the spindles and calipers with their mounting parts make this a GM-based setup. The hubs and rotors, along with wheel bearings and rear #4250 seals are all what you would purchase if you had a stock '76 or '77 Bronco.
So why would the stock lockouts not work? No reason I can think of unless the spindle was too long. But as far as I know, in most cases at least, the stock locking mechanism still fits with the new spindle.

Regarding the snap ring though, another question would be how many people have simply installed Warn or other aftermarket locking hubs on their stock drum brakes and still could not re-use the snap ring? Maybe 90% or more could not re-use it?
It seems that whether you go disc brakes or just add aftermarket hubs, most have a very hard time reinstalling any snap ring on the axle shaft.
The spindles are a tiny bit longer, so the stock groove is not exposed. The Warn hubs were likely designed to fit a Chevy and the folks at Warn were not aware that Ford and maybe Dodge used a different setup. And never fixed it, which means that the inner locking mechanism is longer, which hides the groove. The GM axle shafts locate the snap ring farther out so it's not an issue with them.

I hope that whoever you bought your kit from was going from mis-information then, rather than just trying to take another $100 bucks from you for no reason.
There are salesman that are convinced of course, that anything aftermarket is better than factory. In this case that's wrong, but it's hard to educate everyone once they've been indoctrinated over many years to that fact. Which is why the bottom line is that it's up to us as consumers to know what we need and be able to tell the person on the other end of the phone that.

Which is why they invented the internet...%)



Exactly. But that makes me wonder... I've never heard of it, but I wonder if the stock Spicer lockouts for a GM vehicle were also slightly different from a stock Spicer on a Ford? Never compared the inner gears from one to the other, but now you've got me thinking.
Which is a dangerous thing if I'm near a keyboard.



I'd have to say almost the same thing of the aftermarket lockouts. As they come out of the box and get installed, they're fine. But I've seen way to many people pull them apart and pack them with too much grease and cause the same trouble.
I guess I should just be happy that someone was trying to do maintenance! Unfortunately that kind of maintenance is not always recommended for the aftermarket parts.
Ultimately much of how well things work is up to us.



'Fraid so in most cases.
So you have to rely on the underlying honesty of the folks selling the stuff to not try to stuff you with more parts that you don't need.

Paul

Thanks Paul, it wasn't Wild Horses, but it was from one of the other big name suppliers.
 

Rustytruck

Bronco Guru
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
10,875
Paul,
When converting from Ford drum brakes to Chevy disc the spindle is longer on the chevy spindle, so the drive slug on the axle end before you put the snap ring on covers the snap ring groove on the axle end. "The Fix" was to use a fender washer, star lock washer and a bolt in the end of the axle. A hokey fix at best and it works but aftermarket axles were not drilled and tapped so you couldn't use the "Fix" in replacement axles. So the next big fix was to replace the axle end with the chevy stub axle ends but then you had to replace the whole axle since the u-joints are bigger. This gets expensive. The easiest fix is to remove some material from the axle end drive slug on the snap ring side of the drive slug. Just enough to get the snap ring on. This works well and as factory designed operation. The only fault in this operation is the red knob in the end cap will push in about 1/8" or so. This isn't a big deal as the hub will still lock and unlock and the o-ring seal on the red knob stays sealed in the hubs metal cap.

This is my preferred method of fixing the problem because if the snap ring was left off or the axle not contained from sliding in and out when the end bolt fix is not used. The axle can slide in enough to not seal the V lip seal on the end of the axle on the back side of the spindle. If this were to happen while swimming the truck or in mud or heavy dust you are exposing the inner spindle to contamination. Especially if your inner spindle doesnt use the later design with the small seal in the inner spindle bore, you are also exposing the thrust washer for the axle and the backside of the spindle.

The hubs don't care if the spindle snap ring is there or not, it will function with out it.
 

toddz69

Sponsor/Vendor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
10,079
Paul,
When converting from Ford drum brakes to Chevy disc the spindle is longer on the chevy spindle, so the drive slug on the axle end before you put the snap ring on covers the snap ring groove on the axle end. "The Fix" was to use a fender washer, star lock washer and a bolt in the end of the axle. A hokey fix at best and it works but aftermarket axles were not drilled and tapped so you couldn't use the "Fix" in replacement axles. So the next big fix was to replace the axle end with the chevy stub axle ends but then you had to replace the whole axle since the u-joints are bigger. This gets expensive. The easiest fix is to remove some material from the axle end drive slug on the snap ring side of the drive slug. Just enough to get the snap ring on. This works well and as factory designed operation. The only fault in this operation is the red knob in the end cap will push in about 1/8" or so. This isn't a big deal as the hub will still lock and unlock and the o-ring seal on the red knob stays sealed in the hubs metal cap.

This is my preferred method of fixing the problem because if the snap ring was left off or the axle not contained from sliding in and out when the end bolt fix is not used. The axle can slide in enough to not seal the V lip seal on the end of the axle on the back side of the spindle. If this were to happen while swimming the truck or in mud or heavy dust you are exposing the inner spindle to contamination. Especially if your inner spindle doesnt use the later design with the small seal in the inner spindle bore, you are also exposing the thrust washer for the axle and the backside of the spindle.

The hubs don't care if the spindle snap ring is there or not, it will function with out it.

Excellent summary, Rustytruck. I knew there was a reason I didn't use the stock hubs 25 years ago when I did my first Chevy disc conversion but I couldn't remember exactly what it was.

Todd Z.
 

bmc69

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
11,851
Be careful about that idea. Dana 44 Detroit lockers are well known to blow themselves up when a U-joint lets loose and the shock wave bounces back up the shaft into the diff.

That's why I don't run Detroit Lockers. ;)
 
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