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PS Pump - Serpentine Pulley alignment

LSUpete

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Trying to finish up a 4-year project....and hoping to get some work done on Labor Day.

I have a 351w and I'm installing a serpentine pulley system that I got from Chcuk. The kit came with some extremely vague instructions, but I'm trying to work throught that. I have multiple issues, and questions, but the most important is the pulley alignment. I've installed the pulley onto my Saginaw pump, but as you can see, the angle of the PS pulley isn't the same as the angle on the crank shaft pulley.

How can I massage-straighten-fix this?
 

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ElkhartBronco

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The crank pulley looks to be facing downward. Is the center of the pulley bent? Not to sound alarming, but I wonder if the harmonic balancer might not be installed all the way (correctly) ?
 
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LSUpete

LSUpete

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I don't think the crank is facing downward. The PS pump bracket is noticeably off.
 

ElkhartBronco

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Hmm...... these old eyes haven't been the same since I got bi-focals! :)
aside from returning the bracket, you could shim it out from the top using washers or bend it in a vise with a good sized crescent wrench
 

nvrstuk

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How about calling Chuck tomorrow am?
 

nvrstuk

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;D

What'd he say?
 

plumbdoctor

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Golden
I have the 5.0 bracket from WH, and I had to add some washers w/ the provided spacers to line everthing up. Kinda a pain in the a$$
 

DirtDonk

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Something else looks amiss too Pete. I don't know Chuck's system, but the pulley on the pump looks to be not on all the way. Is it possible to put it on backwards? If so, the offset is holding it out. If not, will it go on any farther?
Yes, the angle looks off too, but I'm thinking that it's both an angle issue, AND a depth issue.

Just from here anyway. Good luck.

Paul
 
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LSUpete

LSUpete

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I've sent photos to Chuck and we're emailing back and forth. He's surprised about that pump pulley angle.

I put the pulley on crrectly, with the flange/offset toward the grill. I tightened that thing about as much as I could, without REALLY hunkering down on it. And, the pump shaft is flush with the edge of the pulley housing.....and that is the way I was always taught. There is about 1/2" of the pump shaft exposed between the back of the pulley and the face of the pump. Did I do something wrong?

Check out the attached photo.
 

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LSUpete

LSUpete

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Here's a good view of the PS pump bracket. There is no way to resolve this with shims or spacers. The bracket is bent and will have to be beaten into shape, or replaced.
 

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LSUpete

LSUpete

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Another monster problem with this system of brackets is that it puts the alternator and the tensioning pulley through the hood.

Does anyone know of a better alternator bracket to use with a serpentine system?
 

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chuck

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The system is from a 89 mustang. If your hood hits it is the only one I have come across that would. I do not know why yours would or why your PS does not set right, I sent the 2 spacers that should be installed between the pump and bracket. If that does not fix the Pump alignment or if you are tired of messing with it send it back. I am sorry it doesn't fit for you and I can't see why from the pictures what is diff. Was the pump bracket bent when you received it? They are my design but I do not make them, we have them made by the 100 then powdercoated so I guess they could have been bent in shipping but they were made to be flat. As I told you we are out of stock right now.
Also, the hood raises up in the center.
 
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DirtDonk

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I know this is off-the-wall Pete, but your motor looks tilted up farther than normal. Maybe it's just the height of the brackets throwing my perspective off, and I don't have one in mine right now to go out and compare to, but it all looks tilted farther than I remember.
Is that possible in your case? If other things have changed, maybe someone here could compare theirs to yours, say the valve cover angle to the fender, maybe that would tell the tale.

See? I said it was off-the-wall and a long-shot. Unless you put some odd type of trans and mount in there and it's too low, or there are some uber-tall engine mounts in it, I don't see what else would cause that (other than my crossed-eyes that is!).
Unless you don't have a trans in it at all yet? That would be too much to hope for, I'm sure, but it's worth a mention.

And back to the pump, obviously there's no way to get the pulley on wrong-way-round, so is it possible that there are pulleys with different offsets? This pulley came with the kit I presume, but maybe someone here with an '89 Mustang setup can compare.
You're correct about them (usually) being seated to the end of the shaft, but they usually don't have that much of a gap between the pump body and back of the pulley either. They can be pushed a bit past the end of the shaft in some cases (tools allowing), but I don't think there's enough there to be the answer.

With the P/S kits though, you sometimes have to space the pump back off the bracket to fit. There to too many different pumps that people can use (we've run afoul of that here many times!), so there is that to wonder about too. But here again, that's a lot of spacing, so not sure.

Which exact pump are you using, and why is not spacing it back an option? Will the tank hit the engine, or the tank inlets interfere with the fender? Kind'a looks that way from here, but the angle is not good to see that.

We had a bracket go out defective recently (documented here on CB) and had to replace it due to some incorrectly fabbed components.
It wasn't just bent (which is usually easy to fix) but had at least one, if not two, little tiny threaded bosses welded on completely crooked. Unfortunately for our customer, it wasn't caught at the manufacturer and got boxed up and sent out for him to discover when his pump didn't line up.

Not saying that should make you happy about yours, or make it any less of a hassle to deal with. Just that it has happened to us too.

Don't mean to muddy the waters, but I'm throwing out things that look to be possible help. I hope!

Good luck.

Paul
 
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LSUpete

LSUpete

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Paul et al,

The motor does seem to sit high, but I don't know why that would be. It's a 1969 351w with stock motor mounts. The C4 transmission mounts are brand new from Jeff's (I believe) so I'm not sure how they could cause any unusual height.

The PS pump is a Saginaw unit and it's been modified to coordinate with a hydroboost braking system.

I pulled the pump bracket and it is definitely not flat. It curves a bit and I'll be sending that back to Chuck. Once he sends me the new one, I'll try the spacers and see if I can get it to work.

The alternator bracket just seems so ridiculously big for it's purpose. I would love to find some other bracket that works with this system.....without putting the tensioning pulley into the hood.

I really want this system to work, but if I can't get it to fit under the hood, I'll have two choices:

1. Install a body lift.
2. Go back to the stock V-belt system.
 

DirtDonk

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Well, a Quadrajet on top of a spacer on top of a 351 does sit high, no matter what. I thought a body lift was needed for those reasons alone.
But yeah, though the alternator itself doesn't seem higher than normal (it's still below the line of the valve covers), the tensioner on those setups does sit a bit high.

Have you been able to determine the exact location of things like the cross-braces under the hood and the little rise of the bubble, and stuff like that? Might as well get an accurate measurement of what you need. If for no other reason than, just to know.

And maybe you can space the transmission crossmember up a bit? It would not take much tilt to lower the front of the engine quite a bit.
And you can also "rotate" the engine on the towers. We have to do it all the time to clear the passenger side serpentine bracket to clear the lower crossmember. Maybe you can do it the opposite way to clear the hood better?
Perhaps a combination of those will put you in a sweet-spot for clearance.

Frankly, anything is worth a try, but stick the hood on there first to see where you stand with all components. By the time you clear the air-filter, you might have plenty of room for the serp brackets without any other mods. Yeah, I know the hood slopes down pretty good in the front, but it's worth a shot.

Paul
 
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LSUpete

LSUpete

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Paul,

I really do not want to add a body lift. It would help immensely, but the resulting seperation between the stock bumper and the nody is NOT something that I could live with.

I'm going to install the hood and see what happens before I make a decision on whether to keep this setup or not. One saving factor is that I have a "Highlander" hood.....so that will help with the air cleaner.

Here are some additional photos of the engine. It does seem to tilt up in the front. What do you suggest I use to space the transmission crossmember?
 

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LSUpete

LSUpete

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Well, problem solved.....at least for the hood clearance issue.

I put the hood on and it shut right down with no problem.
 

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chuck

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Well, glad to hear that. I was thinking it was a optical elision because the first time I used this system on my EB I was concerned about hood clearance.
Now we need to figure out why the pump is not right. If you can take the bracket off and are O.K. with a slightly use one (we used it for testing only)I found one today that I can send tomorrow. If you don't want to take a slightly used one just take the bent one off, hammer it flat and reinstall it with the spacers just to see if that will fix the tilt. I think I can get a diff. offset pulley that might fix the aliegnment and I will send a new one when they come in.
 

DirtDonk

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...I really do not want to add a body lift. It would help immensely, but the resulting seperation between the stock bumper and the nody is NOT something that I could live with.

I hear ya there. I don't either, and that's why I've always liked the idea of the 1" body lift to help just a little without creating a big gap or adding too much to a lift.


I'm going to install the hood and see what happens before I make a decision on whether to keep this setup or not. One saving factor is that I have a "Highlander" hood.....so that will help with the air cleaner.

Well there you go! A Highlander hood can cure a lot of ills without any fuss.
Good news that.

Here are some additional photos of the engine. It does seem to tilt up in the front. What do you suggest I use to space the transmission crossmember?

Hey! Good news about the fit (I just read ahead and saw the results of your test). Glad you didn't need to do anything radical and it works. If you still find it close and would like to gain just a bit more, you could easily add either washers, or some simple steel plate material between the frame mounts and the crossmember. I bet that a quarter to a half inch would give you room to breath.
Or you could add some big "body washers" to the tops of the cushions/insulators between the crossmember and the intermediate housing.

You do have a stock crossmember still, right?

Paul
 
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