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Sanity check C - Bushing

Stock Farm

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
172
I have a 76 with powering steering.
Ordered a complete 2 1/2 lift kit (with Bilistein shocks) from WH and it came with 4 degree bushings.

Going through ALLOT of posts...I think I should use 7 degree...

I understand all trucks maybe a little different and this may not be one size fits all; please help keep my head straight.

Should I go with 7 degree?

Not sure if it matters but I may do a 1" BL (it's uncut), but leaning towards no body lift (pictures of this would be helpful - 2 1/2 with no BL) - I may start another thread for this.

Anyway assuming no BL, I'll want the largest tire that fits - should this be considered when determining 4 or 7 degree bushing.

Thank you
 

No Hay

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
1,657
My mechanic recommended 7 degree for my '76 with a 2 1/2" lift, and it's road manners are about as good as any other one I'll bet.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,355
You can go either way with your '76 Stock Farm. While 4's are the traditional recommendation, most EB's respond well to 7's as long as they have power steering. In your case, it was during '76 that we started to see more caster already built in to the front axle. So here again, in your case the 4's might be just right.

The dilemma here really comes down to not knowing what your caster is right now, before you start the lift. You'll see that recommended a lot here because it really helps with the decision process. I don't suppose you ever had yours on an alignment rack before this by any chance, did you? If so, what was the caster.

As the others alluded to, it's hard to have "too much" caster in a Bronco. But always getting the maximum you can is not exactly required for a good handling Bronco either.
My '71 tracks and handles fantastic with just under 2° positive caster. And that's with 4.5 degrees being considered the optimal setting. Which yours is likely much closer too than mine.

Bottom line is that most '76 EB's can use the 4's to good effect. But if you don't know what you have now, or do know and you have low caster readings currently, or want more caster than the next guy, or just don't want to do it again, maybe wait for the 7's to show up at your door.
At this point it's up to you. But the 4's will work well for most '76's.

See? Easy decision, right?%)
This dilemma is why knowing what your caster is before the vehicle is torn apart is a good thing!
And speaking of which, if you're still driving yours you might just take it in to get a printout of your settings first. That way you'll KNOW without a doublt which bushings you should go with.
Many shops won't charge too much for only the readout and maybe adjust the toe-in. Just make sure they give you all the info, whether they think it's pertinent to you or not. It's all pertinent.

Oh, and are you going to use an adjustable trackbar or not? If not, the 4's will likely put your upper trackbar eye in more of a natural position. If there is such a thing as "natural" after lifting a Bronco!

Paul
 

1971lubr

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
534
Loc.
Cape Coral, FL
To throw a wrench in your plan, I installed the included 4° bushings with my 2.5 lift. I have a 1" body lift and manual steering. Was prepared to replace with 7°, but it drives fantastic. Try the 4's before you change.. bushings aren't a big deal to change if you don't like how it handles. Of course my bronco was one of the rare ones that needed 4° shims for a 2.5 lift to get pinion angles right.
 

DEEPWOODS

Contributor
Bronco Guru
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Jul 29, 2007
Messages
1,100
My 71 with duff arms 4 degree built in and 4 degree C's only had 3 degrees but I have 4 1/2 lift. I say go with the 7 degree c's
 
OP
OP
S

Stock Farm

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
172
Thansk all (Paul, really appreciate how active you are on this board and the advise you offer).

So, the probability of it working better with 7's is high.

I guess another way to ask this is if I went with 7's, what are the chances that I'll have to switch to 4's to get it to track correctly - my guess, no chance.

Unfortunately, the truck was off the road (very, very long time) and not running so checking what I had was out of the question.

I'll reach out to WH and see if I can swap.

Thanks
Sonny
 

Justafordguy

Contributor
Bronco Guru
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Sep 26, 2009
Messages
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I started with 4 degree and changed to 7 degree. Much better with the 7 degree.
 

chuck

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 14, 2001
Messages
6,474
Loc.
Ingram, Texas
4 is what should be right for your EB but a little too much caster is ok but just a little bit not enough is every not good. My example of this is look a stock Harley fork angle compared to a chopper fork. The HD turns fine but a chopper is hard to turn. It goes down the Hi way great because it has a lot more caster. You can't see it as will on a car but the same effect. With too much caster and power steering you will never notice but with a little too little you will be constantly correcting you steering.
 

blubuckaroo

Grease Monkey
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
11,795
Loc.
Ridgefield WA
That 4* bushing has previously been the recommended bushing for that lift, but yes, a 7* bushing will probably make the car track better.

BUT...
Be careful here...
It won't work well for all driving applications.

Using the "C" bushings isn't the right way to fix a castor problem, because you may end up with too much driveline angle.
The problem with that is, if you actually use your Bronco in the winter, may need 4WD to drive on snowy streets. We even lock in the hubs and leave them locked in for the duration of the snow season, so the front driveline is spinning whenever the car is moving. If you increase your driveline angle by adding too much "C" bushing castor, you're going to wipe out the U-joints in your driveline.

Do yourself a favor and do the simple process of checking your driveline angle after you change your new "C" bushings.
 
OP
OP
S

Stock Farm

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
172
I spoke to WH customer service earlier and they are happy to swap them...but said 4 is correct and what they continue to ship with their complete kit.

Very interesting, and I've got to believe they have a ton of experience with this.

They said same thing as others, check what you have and then decide, but 4 has a higher probability of being correct (hence why their kit come with 4).

I mean it's the same dam price so it's not a cost concern...so I'm going to go with WH recommendation and keep my fingers crossed I (we) made the correct choice.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,355
Sounds like a plan. But I would still get it on a rack sometime when you can and get a printout so you know what you're dealing with. That way if you ever experience a problem you can go back to the printout and see if anything in there is pointing in the right direction.

As said, the '76 likely had more caster from the factory. But not guaranteed. Every Bronco is different, as we've found many times. And after 40+ years of use/abuse, you could have bent this, tweaked that, and busted those. Anything can happen.
So see how it drives and post up your experience when you're done.

Thanks

Paul
 

WILDHORSES

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Nov 7, 2003
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2,196
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I posted the same concern, but got ignored.?:?
As far as driveshaft bind I've never found this to be an issue * with up to 7 degree bushings and 2.5-3.5 lift. Over 3.5 lift I will have to go back to the "every Bronco is different";D

* I will add if by chance you are still running an old Borg Warner style driveshaft that one could be a problem. Not so with the newer Dana Spicer types.

Jim
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,835
I've run highway speeds with 7° bushings. Ran for a long time that way once. Forgot to unlock the hubs. Didn't present any issues.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
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I posted the same concern, but got ignored.?:?

No you didn't.
You did not get ignored, because not only did you not post the concern, you didn't even post a question. Those of us subscribed saw your initial concern, but by the time I got the chance to come back to talk about it, it looked like you'd deleted the post. So I didn't chime in even though I wanted to.
Was going to check with you anyway PM-wise, to see if you'd mind me bringing it back up for further discussion even though you'd deleted it. Just hadn't gotten to that point yet.
Or if you didn't actually delete it, then you edited it and changed the wording?
Here's the original:

So, the you all just ignore the increased driveline angle?
We must live in different worlds.?:?

That was about as clear a challenge for an answer as it gets. But the post you kept was not. We discuss the issue a LOT here. And we've even discussed it with you on several occasions if I remember, to good effect.
But the bottom line is that we don't ignore it. It's just still just not an issue for 90% (or more) of the EB's out there to simply put in 7° C-bushings and move on. It never has been. I can't remember when the last time a member here discovered a front shaft bind from minimal lift and/or from using 7 degree bushings. I remember them, just not any recently.
When you get to taller lifts, or happen to have one of the few Broncos that can't tolerate them, then like most things with EB's, you go to Plan B and can change out for lower bushings, or (the better way) get caster using cut-n-turn method. But most members are not going to go there first no matter what we tell them or how close they think their front is going to be to binding. Not until they're forced to by experience will most here go that route.
So 7's are still the most logical first step.

Should it be brought up anyway? Of course. And it still is. You did it yourself in this thread very clearly in fact. Posted a nice clear and concise warning to the OP of what to watch out for. Don't feel ignored because we didn't post denials to your suggestions.
But should the possibility of it stop someone from using the biggest bushing they can if they need it? I don't think so.

A binding driveline is not a good thing, but it's also a very seldom thing. In my experience most don't bind up to 3.5" of lift and 7 degree bushings. And most need the 7's if they can use them. So if in doubt, either because you can't check your caster ahead of time, or through checking seem to be low even before the lift, then I still say go with the 7 degree bushings and see how the Bronco drives. But always check the u-joint/driveshaft angle anyway.
A process which should be part of every suspension lift procedure. Of course we know that, but not all the new-to-old-trucks-world will know that intuitively. So it's very good to bring it up again.

See? You were not ignored. The post you ended up making simply had no reason for a response or counterpoint since it did not pose a question. The words you used were a great recommendation for how to do it correctly. Not a challenge.
Sorry if that all came out a bit strong Mark. I just didn't want you feeling ignored any longer!;D

Now, if you want to make a challenge, ask someone to convince you it's a "truck" not a "car" again!;)

Paul
 
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