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Cigar Lighter + USB Issue

Crush

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Steve 83. I notice you did not comment on the link i posted. That link states that metal with the dielectric grease conducts better than bare metal. Read the link posted. It has multimeter readings posted of different greases. And you who knows it all. There is no such thing as electrical grease. Google it and all links will take you to dielectric grease. Cant find a definition of it anywhere either online or my private library. If you have a tube of electrical grease then post a pic of it. I have reading comprehension. I have a bachelors degree in safety technology and a masters degree in safety managment and did that job for 10'years before deciding to move on to another career. Now im a riverboat/towboat captain And i seriously doubt YOU could pass the Coast Guards rigorous testing to get the license to do this, let alone understand how to operate the boat. Dont assume that someone cant comprehend just because you dont agree with them. You have provided no evidence of your opinion. I have at least given a pic and a link. Which you ignored. My statement of the conductivity came from that sight. Also the permatex statement says electrical connections. If you are saying An electrical connection is just the plastic or rubber casings and not the actual wire connections then you are more ignorant than we all know. A connection is a connection meaning it connects two wires which means the wires have to touch so then the permatex says to use on connections. I think I agree woth the FSB people and im not gonna waste my time with you anymore
 

oldy1978

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Only Ford's DIelectric grease contains silica; Ford's electrical grease is pure silicone grease.

Fact: Ford's electrically grease (XG-12) is not a pure silicone grease but is a silica thickened polyalphaolefin (PAO). Again that is according to Ford's own specification WSB-M1C239-A

That explains why XG-12 and Nyogel 760G are both thinner than silicone based dielectric compound and have a max working temperature of only 257°F(125°C).

I found a chart on Nye's website that highlights the differences of the various synthetic base oils. They even mention ketchup. :cool:
NyeSynthetic Lubricant Chart
 

surfer-b

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Hey dmplatt, did any of this help with your USB connection, I sure hope so, its been a good show so far
 

Steve83

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...you did not comment on the link i posted.
That's because it's farther off-topic. We haven't been discussing conductive grease.
...metal with the dielectric grease...
You're either not comprehending what you're reading, or you're not proofreading what you type. There is no metal in dielectric grease. There is in CONDUCTIVE grease, and in thermal grease.
There is no such thing as electrical grease. ... If you have a tube of electrical grease then post a pic of it.
I assumed you had seen those pics some of the other times I've posted them, or in the link to it that I posted in this thread, but here you go again:



The links to both greases we're discussing are in that caption.
And i seriously doubt YOU could pass the Coast Guards rigorous testing to get the license to do this, let alone understand how to operate the boat.
Off-topic, but yes, I know how to work a boat. And an airplane. And a tank. And a commercial dishwasher. And a screen-printing press. And I doubt you could pass the tests for a Top Secret security clearance, or learn as many languages as I have.

But none of that is relevant to putting a USB power adapter into an eB's cigar socket, which is why I hadn't mentioned any of it before.
A connection is a connection meaning it connects two wires...
That's one valid connotation of the word "connection" in the context of automotive wiring. Another equally-valid connotation is that it connects 2 sections of wiring harness. The second one makes more sense to me - you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to mine, and we're both entitled to post our opinions here.
Fact: Ford's electrically grease (XG-12) is not a pure silicone grease but is a silica thickened polyalphaolefin (PAO).
I'll take your word for it. How does that make dielectric grease the right choice for electrical connections?
Sorry Steve
It didn't bother me. ;D It was a running joke for years on FSB. I used to store comments like that about me in my signature (until I ran out of room & had to create a thread to keep track of them all).
 
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oldy1978

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How does that make dielectric grease the right choice for electrical connections?

Regular dielectric grease:
  • Works -and has been in use for years in aviation, automotive, marine industries
  • Can be readily found from different sources
  • Is less expensive
  • Is multipurpose -so it can be used for things other than electrical connections such as lubricating rubber weather stripping
  • Is compatible with most of the plastics/elastomers used for connectors/insulation/o-rings
  • Has a high working temperature of 400°F -so it can be safely used near the engine.
  • Has a lower working temperature of -65°F
  • Nonflammable

Granted different manufacturers have different formulations but the above numbers are true if they meet mil-spec.

Really the only positive features I have found for Ford's XG-12/Nyogel 760G are lower insertion force (to avoid repetitive stress injuries) and a UV dye (which some dielectric greases formulations have as well) to aid in quality control inspections These benefits might make sense for the vehicle manufacturers but I don't see how they translate to the person working in their own garage.

How hot does the nichrome element get in a cigar lighter? Steve83 might have suggested the use of a grease that could start a fire in his original post on this topic.
 

oldy1978

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For example: "convection" ovens are specifically built NOT to cook with natural convection; they cook with forced airflow. So "convection cooking" means "cooking without convection".

I chuckled when reading the mil-spec because it specifically states to use a convection oven in the testing procedures. And convection can be "forced" through the use of pumps or fans but that doesn't change the method of heat transfer.
 

Steve83

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Ford electrical grease:
  • Works and has been in use for decades
  • Can be readily found from different sources
  • Is less expensive than dealing with the consequences of using the wrong grease
  • Is multipurpose -so it can be used for things other than electrical connections such as lubricating rubber weather stripping
  • Is compatible with ALL of the plastics/elastomers used for connectors/insulation/o-rings
  • Has a high working temperature so it can be safely used near the engine.
  • Nonflammable under normal conditions


IDK where you got your "working temperature" numbers, but Ford silicone dielectric's flash point is 231°F; electrical is 399°F. So it looks to me like electrical grease is LESS-flammable than dielectric.
Really the only positive features I have found for Ford's XG-12...
If you used it, you might find a few more. ;) You totally ignored the benefit that it's specifically designed for: better electrical terminal conductance.
How hot does the nichrome element get in a cigar lighter?
Considering that it's essentially designed to set paper on fire, and that paper burns at 451°F...
...could start a fire in his original post on this topic.
%) Now, you're REALLY grasping. :D

Do you actually think anyone would put THAT much grease into a cigar socket? Especially grease as expensive as this? With that much grease, the lighter would pop out sooner, and cool down. No fire. But since it only takes a thin film to protect the points of contact, I doubt you could get it to burn even if you jammed the lighter in. The wiring would probably catch fire first.

So let's try to stick to reality...

This is /topic, but...
...convection can be "forced" through the use of pumps or fans but that doesn't change the method of heat transfer.
I've never understood why anyone would re-use the term "convection" for forced airflow. To me, convection specifically means the (natural, non-forced) flow of a fluid in gravity due to density differences due to temperature differences. If it's being forced, what does the temperature matter? Either way, the heat transfer is happening strictly via conDUCtion between the fluid & the 2 materials of interest. So the only similarity between non-forced & forced is that conDUCtion. But with (natural) conVECtion, the temperature exchange consequentially causes the fluid to flow, without additional force.
 

Steve83

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You're right that they're not DESIGNED to improve it, but I didn't say they improve it. And electrical grease is not only USED to protect it - it's also DESIGNED to protect it. Dielectric is NOT designed for that - it's designed for the opposite, as its name indicates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone_grease#Dielectric_grease
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dielectric
So as I said: electrical grease will result in BETTER conductance than dielectric or nothing because it's the correct application. House paint might be USED by someone to protect terminals, but since it's not designed for that, electrical grease would result in better conductance.
 

oldy1978

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Steve83, I think your confusion boils down to how things are marketed and the definitions in your head. This would explain your problems with both electrical/dielectric grease and convection ovens.
 

Steve83

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I'm not confused, and I don't have any problem with ovens or grease. I know natural convection is not an efficient way to cook, but a (forced) convection oven is. And I use dielectric grease where I don't want electricity to flow, and electrical grease where I do. I just mentioned that early-on in this thread, and everyone else had problems with it.

I'm not sure that electrical grease is dielectric, but assuming that it is...
It's irrelevant. That's not its most-important property. I can use gasoline to put out a fire, but that doesn't make gasoline a fire-retardant. A starter relay contains a solenoid, but that doesn't make it a starter solenoid. A rear-projection TV uses LCDs, but it's not an LCD TV.

Whatever OTHER properties electrical grease may have or lack, it's significantly better for electrical terminals than dielectric grease. That's what I've been saying from the beginning. No confusion or problem. And this thread has been about electrical terminals from the beginning - not about plastic connectors, or spark plug boots, or heat sinks, or brake caliper slides. So dielectric grease was never relevant to this thread - it was just a tangent that everyone else got hung up on. I still don't know why.
 

oldy1978

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Whatever OTHER properties electrical grease may have or lack, it's significantly better for electrical terminals than dielectric grease. That's what I've been saying from the beginning. No confusion or problem. And this thread has been about electrical terminals from the beginning - not about plastic connectors, or spark plug boots, or heat sinks, or brake caliper slides. So dielectric grease was never relevant to this thread - it was just a tangent that everyone else got hung up on. I still don't know why.

Quantify "significantly better" or that is just your opinion. The dielectric discussion came about because you specifically said NOT to use it. If you just suggested your personal preference I would have no problem, it was only when you stated not to use an alternative that I chimed in.

You don't have to take my word that electrical grease is dielectric:
Get a tube of electrical grease put a line of it on a plastic or glass surface (a known insulator), and measure the resistance with a multimeter.
 

Crush

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So steve. You Are saying that dielectric grease does NOT conduct electricity and if you pit it between two points of contact that it will not make a connection? Just to be clear lets use an example. Lets say if you put dielectic grease on the copper ring horn contacts of the ford horn to prevent wear, the horn will no longer work?

Just trying to clarify what we are all talking about here
 

Steve83

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Quantify "significantly better"...
Again? %) That's what the past 30 posts in this thread have been about.
...measure the resistance with a multimeter.
You STILL don't seem to understand what "dielectric" means. It's NOT a synonym of "resistance". You can't determine what's dielectric & what's not with a multimeter. It's a molecular quality.
...dielectric grease does NOT conduct electricity...?
Did you NOT follow the links I posted for you? Look in post #51. Dielectric ANYTHING does not conduct electricity.
...if you pit it between two points of contact that it will not make a connection?
Now you're just being confusing. I can put a plate of steel between 2 other things. Whether or not those 2 things still make contact with each other depends on a LOT of factors. Like how much force they apply toward each other, and whether or not there's any movement relative to the steel plate. If, let's say, they're the carbide cutters on a brake lathe, they won't touch for a while. But eventually, they CAN make contact again after they cut through the steel of the brake rotor. Same for putting dielectric between terminals - the terminals MIGHT still make contact DESPITE the grease, depending on how much force the terminals can maintain toward each other. But I don't recommend you put things on your eB that it might work IN SPITE OF; I recommend you put things on it that HELP it keep working right. Like dielectric grease on the spark plug boots, the rubber or hard plastic of the connector shells, and the caliper slides if it has disk brakes. For electrical TERMINALS: electrical grease. It will also help the spark plug boots & connector shells, if you don't have or want to use dielectric there.
Lets say if you put dielectic grease on the copper ring horn contacts of the ford horn to prevent wear, the horn will no longer work?
Depends on the force/pressure/abrasion/viscosity... Most likely (as you already know) the horn WILL still work. But NOT because the grease is conducting any electricity, and not because it's helping. The contacts will still make contact because they're among the heaviest, highest-pressure abrasive contacts ever used on a consumer-grade machine. If you put house paint on the rings & wipers, and let it dry before mounting the steering wheel, they'd eventually make contact, and the horn would work (after the paint wears away). That DOESN'T mean house paint is good for electrical connections. Neither is dielectric grease, even though the horn will probably keep working.

Now, let's say you put it on a terminal that DOESN'T constantly abrade, and has FAR LESS contact force - like a modern USB power adapter for a cigar socket. Will it work? Maybe - maybe not. But that's the original problem. Even with NO grease, he has intermittent contact. Why? Because the corrosion inside the socket doesn't conduct electricity, either. The only difference between it & dielectric grease is that dielectric is SLIGHTLY more fluid, so it's easier to scrape out of the way. It's not actually HELPING the adapter make contact, or improving the contact area. Neither is electrical grease, but it doesn't TRY TO STAY IN THE WAY to the degree that dielectric grease does. It's runnier, so it moves out of the way with far less force/pressure, while still providing all the benefits that you think you're getting from dielectric.
 
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bronconut73

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This thread is so frustrating I just went out to the garage and stomped on my tube of "di"-electric grease.

Now I have grease all over the heal of my boot.
Where's my brake cleaner....


Sorry...just thought this thread could use a little comic relief....lol
 

oldy1978

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Did your father (the successful chemical engineer) trust some dude on the internet's statements as fact or did he require real information/data/testing in his job?

  • You have stated both; air voids "don't hurt anything" regarding dielectric grease and that electrical grease "fills any voids."
  • You have stated; electrical grease is made "without sand" even though it is thickened with silica -according to Ford's own specification.
  • You have stated; electrical grease is "pure silicone grease" even though it contains no silicone -again according to Ford's own specification.
  • You have stated dielectric grease is wrong even though electrical grease is dielectric.

Since you've already made a few statements contradicting yourself or were just plain wrong in this thread, why should anyone take your position that the dielectric grease is too thick to work without seeing some real data?

Greases are made by adding thickening agents to oils specifically to increase viscosity...if the thicker characteristics were not desirable why not just use the base oil? You acknowledged that greases are non-Newtonian fluids (specifically shear thinning,) but you're ignoring that the viscosity you see when squeezing them out of the tube is not the same viscosity electrical terminals experience.
 
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