1970 Rebuild

Phase 36

More work on the Bronco.

Did the electrical check today and came up with some real head scratchers.

Here we go:

Column: SUM-771713B-NK
Tail lights: United Products Sequential LED, UPD-110497
Headlights: 03-16 Jeep LED with DRL Halo and Blinker Halo
Dash: Dakota Digital (DD) VHX-66F-BRO
Wiring: Centech harness with LED Flashers
Lights: All LED

Hooked the battery up and the left turn signal and halo ring on the headlight would blink with the turn signal switch off. When the switch is in the left turn position, the lights go out. When the switch is in the right turn position, no right turn, but left continues to blink.

All marker lights work in the front and on the sides, no marker or brake lights are working. License plate light works. No horn.

Headlights work on low and high. No high beam indication on the DD.

When my radio is on, there is a click behind the dash every five seconds.

Truck started up, the starter kind of hangs. Ran fine and tried to burp the power steering and work the hydroboost. Called it for the day and wrote notes.

Any ideas on the blinker issues and taillights?

First pic is the column wiring, second is the Centech connector wiring and third is the diagram that I went by to connect it up. Horn wire from column (Blk) to horn wire (Ylw), last minute change. Single wire for the horn button in the column, no power wire.

Horn - I would make sure your horn works. Run a 12v jumper directly from battery. Mine was dead. Even after a new horn, mine wouldn’t work, then realized I didn’t have a ground running from it (BD body like yours).

My tail lights were similar. Ended up using a test light to ensure socket was getting power, then grounded the housings to same ground as license plate light, and running dedicated wire up to battery. The BD bodies are nice but I had same quirks as you for wiring except I used Painless.

You may have already tested all of this but thought I would mention it.

Finishing Phase of Rebuild

Little more work on the Bronco.

Corrected my issue with the lights in the back. Got new buckets and straightened out the wiring and grounded them to the frame (fiberglass tub). Taillights, blinkers, brakes and reverse lights work. Have one problem still. When the battery is connected, the left blinker is on automatically with the switch in the OFF position. When in left turn, all lights work correctly. In right turn, all lights blink (fronts, markers and rears). I grounded my turn signal buckets in the grille to my ground point in the frame on the passenger side and no change to this situation.

To add insult to injury, I have an issue with my wiper switch.

I used the following wires in the Centech harness:

Orange wire (Power In) to pin 763
Red wire (Park Power) to pin 63
White wire (Low Speed) to pin 58
Black wire (Park Circuit Power) to pin 615
Blue wire (High Speed) to pin 56
Purple wire (Washer Squirter) to pin 941
Black wire (Ground) to ground bar inside dash.

I used the spade terminal (Orange wire) to connect 12V Key on to my Dakota Digital dash.

There is no other power wire to go to pin 950. Where does that power come from?

There is an additional Green wire for Dash Lights, can this double as the other power source for pin 950?

My horn is connected and the column is grounded, but the horn (air horn) will not blow. It is grounded and connected according to the schematic. Need to possibly get a regular horn to test.

That is enough for now.

v/r,

SevenT

SevenT said:

I grounded my turn signal buckets in the grille to my ground point in the frame on the passenger side and no change to this situation.

Click to expand...

Where were they grounded before?
And to my way of thinking, it's not a ground issue when the turn signal is activated without the switch. Power is not only getting to the light, but it's coming all the way from the flasher unit (or it would not flash) and all the way through the turn signal switch to get there.
Sounds to me like one or more of the wires at the column are incorrectly routed, or your switch is bad.
I could be missing something easily, and I know we say that the weirder an electrical problem is, the more likely to be a ground issue it is. But this just doesn't sound like one of those.

SevenT said:

Orange wire (Power In) to pin 763
Red wire (Park Power) to pin 63
White wire (Low Speed) to pin 58
Black wire (Park Circuit Power) to pin 615
Blue wire (High Speed) to pin 56
Purple wire (Washer Squirter) to pin 941
Black wire (Ground) to ground bar inside dash.

Click to expand...

Wow, that sounds like more wires than I remember in a Centech wiper harness.
Do you have a link to the new instructions? I think they're new at least, because someone recently said they'd changed.

SevenT said:

I used the spade terminal (Orange wire) to connect 12V Key on to my Dakota Digital dash.

Click to expand...

What does Centech say it's there for? Unusual to have a power tap like that near another function. Not that it can't work. Just seems odd.
Maybe 904 will chime in since he's done so many and more recently.

SevenT said:

There is no other power wire to go to pin 950. Where does that power come from?

Click to expand...

What is pin 950? I don't know numbers, only names. Where is it, and what is it supposed to do?

SevenT said:

There is an additional Green wire for Dash Lights, can this double as the other power source for pin 950?

Click to expand...

Maybe. But only if you want 950's function to work only when the lights are on?

SevenT said:

My horn is connected and the column is grounded, but the horn (air horn) will not blow. It is grounded and connected according to the schematic. Need to possibly get a regular horn to test.

Click to expand...

Is there a relay to the air compressor? How is the compressor powered? And maybe this is an issue with the wiring at the steering column. What year column is it you're using? Single contact like 74 and later? Or double contact like '73 and earlier?
Does Centech still give you the choice of using a horn relay or not?

Before you substitute a regular horn, check that the air horn works first. Power it up directly and see if it honks. Bypass the horn button.
If that does not work, then you need to check for voltage where it's supposed to be.

You said the column is grounded. Does that mean you have a jumper over any u-joints or rag-joints in the shaft?

Paul

Paul,

I did not have the front buckets specifically grounded. Needed to eliminate the possibility of no ground like the back buckets.

Column switch is GM not Ford, may need to change that out.

I will look for updated instructions from Centech

I can only get cryptic email responses, need to call Centech and hash this out.

Pin 950 is Power In for Wiper.

There is a relay for the air horn. The column is one wire, just sends ground to the horn. I am direct to the horn from the button via the horn wire at the harness and column. The Centech does have a horn relay. Not using it right now. I need to check the horn independently by grounding the relay to see if it blows. I grounded the column (bottom near the firewall boot) to the ground bar in the dash (fiberglass tub) since I though that could be an issue. There are no rag joints to bridge. Do I need to go the entire length?

Thanks for the all the help. I want this done to go to Super Celebration West in September.

v/r,

Mike

SevenT said:

Column switch is GM not Ford, may need to change that out.

Click to expand...

Don't go to too much trouble. Should still work just fine as long as all the wiring is matched to the Centech.

SevenT said:

I will look for updated instructions from Centech

Click to expand...

I think someone here posted them up not long ago. Or maybe they just brought it up in conversation but did not post them directly. Don't remember.

SevenT said:

Pin 950 is Power In for Wiper.

Click to expand...

Is the motor fully grounded, and the windshield frame fully grounded to the body? Did we talk about that already?

SevenT said:

There is a relay for the air horn.

Click to expand...

SevenT said:

The column is one wire, just sends ground to the horn.

Click to expand...

Separate from the Centech horn relay?
You mean the horn button grounds the relay, correct?

SevenT said:

I am direct to the horn from the button via the horn wire at the harness and column.

Click to expand...

Since Centech makes it so you can go direct if you have a 2-contact switch, or just to ground with a 1-contact switch, you do not go directly to the horn with your button.
The air horns do not need to ground. Only the compressor needs that, and that is likely handled by a dedicated wire at the compressor. The horn button only grounds the proper pin on the compressor's power relay.
Is that how you have yours?

The Centech horn wiring is sometimes confusing because they allow for both early and late Bronco wiring schemes. With your different setup though, you have to create the third scenario where the horn button grounds the compressor relay rather than the old horn relay, which might not have the proper connections.

Best to probably use the Centech horn relay to energize the compressor, instead of adding the one that probably came with the air horns? What model horn are you using? Did you keep your stock one?
I've set up both types before, with a simple toggle switch on the dash. In one position it used the stock relay and horn, in the other it used the aftermarket relay and compressor. That was the old FIAMM brand that you used to see everywhere. Not sure if yours uses the same type of relay or not.

SevenT said:

The Centech does have a horn relay. Not using it right now.

Click to expand...

Then the horn button can only ground the relay. You can't use it to power or ground the horn itself. Or at least you should not do it that way. Might be able to work, but obviously since it does not right now we have to consider every angle.

SevenT said:

I need to check the horn independently by grounding the relay to see if it blows.

Click to expand...

Yep.

SevenT said:

I grounded the column (bottom near the firewall boot) to the ground bar in the dash (fiberglass tub) since I though that could be an issue.

Click to expand...

That's good, but the ground for most is handled through the shaft itself, so you just need to make sure there are no insulators. Which is why I asked about a rag-joint, since those split the shaft with an insulating material and will very often interrupt, or sometimes interrupt the horn button's grounding ability.

SevenT said:

There are no rag joints to bridge. Do I need to go the entire length?

Click to expand...

If there's no rag-joint then the shaft probably grounds well enough to the gear box, and then to the frame.
Is your frame grounded by any chance? Not usually critical, but it helps anyway.

And this is another reason for the button grounding the relay and not the horn. The amount of current passing through the relay's coil circuit is minimal and so even a crappy ground can trigger the relay. But a crappy ground would likely not be very reliable for the horn itself.

But thinking about that aspect, I'm probably just misunderstanding what you said. Since the horns don't ground in an air-horn setup. Only the compressor and relay need a ground.
So in case you're trying to use it to ground the compressor, don't. Just ground the relay.

Paul

Paul,

I ordered a Ford switch just to rule that out as an issue.

I have the most current version of instructions from Centech.

The engine is grounded to the frame at the same point that I have all of my other grounds coming to in the front. The back is grounded to the frame with a continuity line from the front point to the rear to keep the potential the same. I did not ground the windshield frame. Need to do that since it is connected to fiberglass. Good catch.

Since the horn button is only one wire, it can only send a ground to the horn. The Wolo Model 400 horns are wired this way: +12V through a 20 amp fuse to pins 30 and 86 on the supplied relay, pin 87 goes to the positive side of the compressor which is grounded as well and then pin 85 is connected to the horn switch for ground. I no longer have the factory horn, but have replacements I can use.

How would you suggest I ground my frame? Do I add a braided strap that drags on the road/ground? It is not grounded now.

I am going to call Centech about the anomaly with the blinker and all flash while in right turn.

I replaced both relays (horn and flash) with digital ones, since I am all LED. They are FL2-RED-K and are compatible with C5AZ-13350-B analog relays.

Thanks for all of the help.

Mike

Wiring Gremlins

Bronco brothers,

Just got off of the phone with Centech Tech Support and they had me unhook the column connector to the wiring harness and the left front flash issue went away. I have a new Ford turn signal switch coming the middle of the week. Centech also helped me correct my issue with power to the wiper switch. In addition Paul pointed out the I need to ground my windshield frame. Such is the life with a fiberglass tub.

I can certainly see the light at the end of the tunnel and it is not an oncoming BNSF train. Thanks for everyone's help so far.

v/r,

SevenT

SevenT said:

I ordered a Ford switch just to rule that out as an issue.

Click to expand...

How do you swap a GM turn signal for a Ford, or vice versa? The column is GM based, correct? Is this an aftermarket tilt-column?
And since a 1-wire is a 1-wire, whether from Ford or GM, it's just a ground and that's it's only function. Brand won't matter at that point. It's either a good switch or a bad switch. A good contact or a bad contact.
I think you said you tried grounding the contact point directly and it still did not honk. That means that either the wires at the column connector are not correct, your switch is defective, or it's just not getting a good connection to ground.
If you swap to a 2-wire you have to change your steering wheel adapter too, along with how it's wired to the column connector. But it would work at least. You simply use the two contacts to send switched 12v to the relay instead of ground.

SevenT said:

The engine is grounded to the frame at the same point that I have all of my other grounds coming to in the front.

Click to expand...

SevenT said:

How would you suggest I ground my frame? Do I add a braided strap that drags on the road/ground? It is not grounded now.

Click to expand...

It sounds grounded to me. The battery is the only vehicle ground source needed. Except for static electricity, you don't earth the vehicle literally to the ground. It's all about the battery, so it sounds like your frame is well grounded.

SevenT said:

Since the horn button is only one wire, it can only send a ground to the horn.
The Wolo Model 400 horns are wired this way:
+12V through a 20 amp fuse to pins 30 and 86 on the supplied relay
pin 87 goes to the positive side of the compressor which is grounded as well
and then pin 85 is connected to the horn switch for ground.

Click to expand...

Then you're good. It was just the wording I was asking about, where "the horn" actually meant the horn relay. So it's all good.
You just need to find out why the #85 is not getting a good ground signal.
If you ground it directly and it still does not honk, then something is wrong with the relay or compressor. If it does honk, then you're good and just have to find out why the horn button is not grounding.

SevenT said:

I no longer have the factory horn, but have replacements I can use.

Click to expand...

Yep, those would be fine to test the circuit too. But since you can test the existing air horn as well, then as soon as you know for sure that the whole horn and compressor setup works, then you know the fault is between the relay and the horn button.
Gettin' close!

Paul

Wiring Demons

Paul,

It is an aftermarket column from Summit. The connection is GM style. The Ford switch should fit (crossed fingers). Gonna try to stick to one wire. Never got to ground the relay to see if it blows. Needs to be done. Just need to wait on the switch to get here on Wednesday and press on from there. Thanks for all of the help.

v/r,

Mike

Phase Fail

More Centech Gremlins to Kill,

First problem:

The orange female spade at the wiper switch is applied to the wiper switch for power at 950 (Power In for Wiper) in accordance with Centech. Moved my radio and Dakota Digital to the pigtail off of the Accessory fuse. My windshield frame is grounded since it is on a fiberglass tub. Wash function works on the switch. When I try to use the wipers, the voltage drops to 7.4 volts (according to the Dakota Digital face) and cannot make the wipers move. I will need to move the radio and Dakota Digital to another key-on 12V source. Where can I find that source?

Second problem:

I found the column hazard switch to be causing the intermittent flash on the left front. That is resolved. However, when the flasher is activated, all turn signals and marker lights flash. This get worse with the turn signals. Left turn works perfect. Right turn makes all turn signals and markers blink. The left side lights are not as bright, but still on.

Third problem:

The air horns will blow if I ground the relay. When the one-wire column is hooked up, nothing to the horn on the yellow wire. Kinda stumped on this one as well.

This is disappointing, I want this to work and cannot seem to make it do so. Any help is appreciated.

v/r,

SevenT

Phase Fail Part 2

Centech Gremlins of another color.

Jim @ Centech helped me isolate my wiring issue at the front blinkers. Got the dim and bright elements correct this time. Had to use incandescent bulbs to make sure, LEDs you really can't tell. Got that straight and the blinkers now blink without activating any other lights that should not be on.

New problem. When the lights are on (first notch and second notch on switch), the blinkers will not flash in the front or the back. It is the same with the flashers. Guess I only drive during the day.

Still have not figured out the horn issue. Paul (Dirt Donk) thinks it is because the steering column is not grounded all the way to the frame. Looking into a way to fix a ground to the bottom of the column and run it to the steering box.

Any insight is appreciated.

v/r,

SevenT

The grounding issue with columns is usually nothing exotic, but a problem jumping the insulating effect of a rag-joint. It's possible that a metal u-joint could have the same issue, but much less likely.
If there is a rag joint in the shaft, make sure it's got a jumper bar or wire to connect the two halves of the shaft together. The steering gearbox itself will ground to the frame.
If one of the steering joints is a "tulip joint" (early style coupler) that could be an issue as well.

Got some more details for us?

Paul

Centech Gremlins to Kill

Paul,

It is a Borgeson DD collapsible shaft to the steering box. BRG-450036
Steering Shaft, Steel Alloy, Universal.

There is no wire. Can I run a wire from the DD connector at the column to the shaft and make a good connection?

Thanks.

v/r,

SevenT

SevenT said:

It is a Borgeson DD collapsible shaft to the steering box. BRG-450036
Steering Shaft, Steel Alloy, Universal.

Click to expand...

Ok, those are normally fine without any help from a jumper wire. But they're not made to carry much current, which is why in my opinion you MUST use one of the relays.
Let the grounded steering column trigger a relay, rather than trying to pass through the 15-20 amps that the pump for the air horn requires. I just don't think it's good for the components, even if they can actually pass that much current

SevenT said:

There is no wire. Can I run a wire from the DD connector at the column to the shaft and make a good connection?

Click to expand...

You should be able to, but I would hold off until we've exhausted all other possibilities first. Or at least you could fasten a wire temporarily between the upper and lower shafts. Maybe even just tape the ends to the metal for now.

What turn signal switch are you using, and what steering wheel adapter?

Paul

Centech Gremlins

Paul,

The air horns came with a relay that I want to trigger with the horn button. It is wired and connected to the horn wire in the Centech harness. I think that goes to the horn relay in the harness. Should I just hook it to the Yellow wire in the harness? That is the wire going to the air horn relay.

I am using the steering wheel recommended for the Summit column. I beleive it is a GM wheel and a GM column with a GM turn signal switch.

vr,

Mike

And you did not change the switch for the Ford one you were contemplating earlier?

As far as the relays, you should not necessarily be using both. In fact, the way it is now might be causing the trouble. If you're using negative 12v to trigger the air horn relay, and it's sending a postive 12v signal to the Centech relay, the Centech relay is not going to trigger unless you re-wire it.
Pick one relay or the other and stick with it only. Since the Centech wiring is set up to use theirs, then unless yours is a particularly heavy duty model or something, then use the Centech and let it trigger to energize the air compressor.

Right now you are adding at least one unnecessary layer of complexity and adding at least one more potential failure point. There are some tricky circuits that use multiple relays to do specific tasks a specific way, but for a simple ON/OFF function I can't think of any reason for two relays.

Didn't you post up instructions for the air horn? I thought you did but in a quick refresher I did not see it.

Paul

Centech Gremlins to Kill

Paul,

The air horns (Wolo Model 400) have 12V thru a 20 amp fuse to pins 30 and 86 on the supplied relay. Pin 85 is the ground and pin 87 goes to the compressor.

How would I wire the horns to work off of the Centech relay? That was not in the instructions.

Thanks.

v/r,

Mike

Thanks, I'll check them out. But in the meantime, have you grounded out Pin #85 just to see if they honk?

Paul

Ok, get rid of the new relay and just use the Centech wiring entirely.
You can do this multiple ways probably, but basically once you're sure that the steering column is wired properly to use the Centech relay, take the wire that runs down to the horn from the Centech harness and connect it to the positive side of the new compressor.
Voila! Done...

Paul