Electrolysis Question

bronco loco said:

Where did you get yours from, may need to add it to my aluminum radiator.

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http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/produc...e-16lb-Radiator-Cap/Bronco_Aluminum_Radiators

I just noticed they also have a drain plug with sacrificial anode.

Bob

anodes work, it is the reason they are in water heaters

September 1972 said:

Never stack grounds or a ground loop...

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Every automaker (including Ford, Land Rover, GM, Mitsubishi, Saab, BMW, Nissan, & Honda) does. Every tractor maker does. Every lawn tractor maker does. Every large-appliance maker does.

Ground loop does not affect DC power circuits. It's strictly an AC phenomenon, and it's a VERY low-voltage phenomenon (lower than the ripple you mentioned). And stacking terminals doesn't cause it; nor does separating them prevent or eliminate it.

September 1972 said:

Ford and others ALL undergrounded their cars, they still do, it keeps the service isle busy at the dealership.

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Factory grounding was NEVER the cause for a vehicle coming in for service at any of the dealerships I worked at, regardless of the vehicle's age. But modern vehicles (since ~'94) are wired so they don't actually use "ground" much (mainly just for starting, charging, & RFI shielding). They use Copper return wiring for the vast majority of medium- & low-current circuits, just like the positive side.

September 1972 said:

I have an advanced degree in Automotive electrical systems...

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What college offers that degree?

The course is called " advanced automotive technology" and is offered at community colleges and major universities. 8-1 M-T for 2 years.

On the first day the instructor gave each of us a box full of wire, clips, about 5 devices, and relays and switches, battery ect.

"Make it work and draw a schematic there will be no questions, good luck" he said and that was it.

I was 40 and already working in engineering and the rest of the 25 or so guys we're 18 to 30. I was first, it took me an hour or so. About 10 minutes later a little Philippino kid was finished. No one else finished. About 2 hours in the instructor called it.

Factory grounding problems are a billion dollar a year business. It's the first thing we we're taught. For example, Japanese cars have about 12 grounds. American cars about 3, now this was 20 years ago when I was in class, today who knows. Humidity changes and rain causes an electrical problem to go away or surface, it's an important clue. A good scope man can zero in on a problem in 15 minutes. Did you know that a scope measures a spark jumping the gap in millionths of a second. The time it takes for the spark to jump the gap takes longer in a rich cylinder, the extra fuel slows it down and can be seen in the firing line. The scope looks and the coil saturation and discharge, which will indicate vacuum leaks, low compression, a bad valve or even a worn cam lobe. Ignition wires break down under load, the low A/F ratio exploits the HV output of the wires. Testing resistance per foot of wire is partly useful, but wires can check out OHM wise and still be bad. So if your Bronco accelerates out of the hole great but has some other drivability issue, it likely ain't the wires.

You took some time today to discredit me Steve, and I appreciate your effort. The dealership where you worked, was it located on Mars?

Stacked grounds is okay for some circuits, not all. Computers do not like to be anywhere near a dedicated ground, they like the body shell and it's near zero resistance. Look at a 15 year old side post battery cable. Notice something? I put 3/8 coarse studs in my batteries and press on new lugs and go direct. If you look carefully, the rubber is hard around the boot and the contact area is minimal. There is usually a heat witness on the cable terminal, a dark spot where the current was forced to go. The hard boot won't make good contact no matter how hard you bleed the 5/16 bolt.

AC is everywhere in a car, the speaker outputs for the sound system and speed sensors to name a few.

Since I have several all aluminum radiators I researched the issue presented here. Current flowing through the radiator will cause corrosion but if the radiator is a quality unit it would take years to cause problems. The anode may attract current since current wants to find a ground so that it can do work since energy is not created or destroyed, it simply moves from one place to another.

A boat is completely different, there is electrical potential between the boat and the current with no place to go. Zinc tabs trail the boat so that the current created by the salt water churning on the hull zips under the boat and forms a circuit in the zinc tabs. Donor metal is removed and replaced by the current building it's own battery cell in a sense. The zinc tab is the host and the current eats itself at the host cell expending the energy that would go after something in the boat.

Here is a pic of a 68 Camaro headlight bezel. When we first noticed the hole it looked like it was sanded or a torch tip hit it. Upon further examination it's clear it was neither, but rather the engine had no ground so the current found and burned the throttle cable, zipped around the outside of the car and found the headlights ground wire on the core support. It happened before we got the car and the previous owner or his mechanic's solution was to put a $400 mini starter in it and replace the alternator with a 200 amp model. If someone wants to see pics let me what email to sent it to so that you can post it. I know some of you have seen burned throttle cables, look carefully on the Bronco throttle linkage you may see a black spot at a hinge pin if there was is a grounding issue.

September 1972 said:

...offered at community colleges and major universities.

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None of the universities I went to offered it - that's why I asked. Not LSU, and not the state university in my hometown. The other was a specialty college - not technical - so of course it didn't.

September 1972 said:

Japanese cars have about 12 grounds. American cars about 3, now this was 20 years ago when I was in class...

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I don't know what US vehicles you're talking about - my '83 Bronco was built with at least 8 ground points; my stock '93 has a dozen.

September 1972 said:

...today who knows.

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I do. I still work on them today. So does anyone who looks up their wiring diagrams:
http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/Wd

September 1972 said:

You took some time today to discredit me...

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No, I didn't. My previous post didn't take much time, and what I post has nothing to do with your credit. I posted my opinions, observations, and a question.

September 1972 said:

The dealership where you worked, was it located on Mars?

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Now you're discrediting yourself, so don't blame me for it. %)

September 1972 said:

Stacked grounds is okay for some circuits, not all.

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Which ones?

September 1972 said:

Computers do not like to be anywhere near a dedicated ground...

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Odd then that Ford & most other automakers put a major ground point near the PCM/EEC. In that diagram above, G104 is maybe a foot from the EEC; G201 is probably <6". In this pic, G104 is barely out-of-frame at the top center, but you can see the black wires going up to it:



In this pic, G201 is the green bolt below the hood pull:



So: with a factory ground loop, you'd expect all those millions of trucks to have millions of computer & signal problems, right?

September 1972 said:

...the body shell and it's near zero resistance.

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When it's NEW, maybe. But Copper wire has less resistance than steel; particularly after 30-40 years of off-roading. That's why modern vehicles don't use grounding for most circuits. Especially those sensitive to AC or RFI.

September 1972 said:

Look at a 15 year old side post battery cable. Notice something?

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Lots of things - you'll have to be more specific.

September 1972 said:

I put 3/8 coarse studs in my batteries...

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Me, too. Stainless. Then I sold the truck.

September 1972 said:

...the rubber is hard around the boot...

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Not mine.

September 1972 said:

...the contact area is minimal.

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I estimate ~400 square millimeters (including the bolt) for a clean side-terminal; about 700 for a clean top-post. Either type can become filthy & have "minimal" contact area.

September 1972 said:

The hard boot won't make good contact no matter how hard you bleed the 5/16 bolt.

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I assume "bleed" was a typo, but it'll get tight if you clean the battery terminal face, and the groove between the Lead & the plastic lip so the boot has a place to fit into. At least; I never had a problem with it on all the side-terminal vehicles I've worked on.

September 1972 said:

AC is everywhere in a car, the speaker outputs for the sound system and speed sensors to name a few.

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But this thread isn't about the audio system, and early Broncos don't have speed sensors. Certainly not running through the coolant system. So I don't get your point. We're talking about galvanic corrosion due to the power distribution wiring, and you brought up ground loops. Why are you now talking about speakers & sensors (that most eBs don't have)?


If you want to embed pics in your posts (whether a contributor here or not), read this thread:
http://www.supermotors.net/forums/thid-5972-how-do-i-post-pictures-sounds-and-or-videos

Steve, I understand that you can't change the factory design at a dealership on customers cars.

The grounding systems on cars are crap. Why are positive circuit connectors protected in nice red boots while ground connectors are exposed to the elements? The electrons flow negative to positive or now they think as I do that they go back and forth, so circuit grounds are just as important as circuit positives.

I stack redundant grounds which are from the engine to the frame and the transmission to the frame so that any devise or switch or sensor located on the powertrain can find it. The third cable on the stacked ground post is a foot away from a 1 gauge cable that is connected to the negative terminal of the battery, there is a 1 and a 4 gauge cable on the battery. The alternator bracket mounts have to be clean or it's ground is comprised and there is a cable from that bracket near the 1 gauge.

I think you get the idea. Try this experiment. Hook up an ammeter between the negative battery and it's terminal, not a clip, a real De-arsanval ampmeter and two voltmeters. Turn on the lights and load the alternator as high as possible and turn the radio up as high as you can. Record the amp movement and the average of the 2 voltmeters. Turn off the vehicle. Using existing bolts on the vehicle, bolt 2 number 1 cables from the negative battery side of the ammeter adaptor, then attach one to the engine and one to the frame and restart the vehicle and record the volts and amps. Does the radio sound better? Are the amps and volt readings different?

My Camaro is a 68 vert 502 4 speed 9 inch ford rear with ride tech suspension a 16 caliper brakes with a mopar manual master with hand operated proportioning valve. I did a dumb thing a while back.

The positive cables are attached to a 600 amp buss bar located inside the fender. They are 1 gauge is size with 1200F sheathing. The battery terminals and lugs are by Quick and the cable is SAE mill spec rated pressed into the connectors. I lifted an engine with a on short piece 4OT and 3/8 lugs on a bet, and there's dielectric grease on the stripped ends!

The buss bar has 1 cable from the positive of the battery, one from the starter, one from the one wire alternator, one to the amps in the trunk, and one to the vehicle fuse box.

The negative buss bar is a 60 dollar high grade copper plate bolted to the core support. 5 cables are attached to the buss bar but some are stacked on the frame, the amps in the trunk are grounded to a bolt behind the rear seat to the body.

There are no circuit breakers or fuse links.

I was removing the cable from the alternator and forgot to disconnect the negative battery cable and it hit the engine and all hell broke loose. The cable lug was swinging around like a snake, it sounded exactly like a arc welder. 10 seconds passed before I grabbed the cable and ended it.

There was no damage other than the back of the alternator looked like a kid tried to arc weld on it. The wiring is so over built that the electrical energy went right back to the battery and the battery rejected it to the extent that the electromotive force would not allow the cable lug to stick to the engine. If the battery was low on charge or if one connection was loose, the electricity would have gone searching for a ground, and it had enough energy it would have used a positive, a negative, it wouldn't care, my amps or instrument cluster anything it hit would have been toasted. The electricity took the path of least resistance and when it found the source, the battery, it was rejected over and over in a millionths of a second. If the cable would have stuck in a crevasse in the engine the battery might have exploded. The battery and other cables we're not warm or showed any signs of the event, the cable lug to the alternator was damaged slightly so I polished it and reused it.

September 1972 said:

Why are positive circuit connectors protected in nice red boots while ground connectors are exposed to the elements?

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Well, I can guarantee you that weather exposure is NOT the reason that the non-ground side of the circuits are insulated. But if you don't understand that just by looking at it, I doubt anything I say will help you.

...and I really don't think much of that degree, or any college that offers it.

September 1972 said:

...the electrical energy went right back to the battery and the battery rejected it to the extent that the electromotive force would not allow the cable lug to stick to the engine. If the battery was low on charge or if one connection was loose, the electricity would have gone searching for a ground, and it had enough energy it would have used a positive, a negative, it wouldn't care, my amps or instrument cluster anything it hit would have been toasted. The electricity took the path of least resistance and when it found the source, the battery, it was rejected over and over in a millionths of a second.

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Uuuuuuhhh... %)





I'm guessing Vicodin, Vodka, & Red Bull.

EMF (Voltage) is not a physical force that would affect a swinging cable. It's a subatomic force that only affects electrons.

Call her up and educate her, why are you working at a dealership, you should be at Lawrence Livermore national laboratories Steve? What a waste of talent.


The voltage of a battery is also known as the emf, the electromotive force. This emf can be thought of as the pressure that causes charges to flow through a circuit the battery is part of. This flow of charge is very similar to the flow of other things, such as heat or water.

Prof. PANG, Stella W. (彭慧芝)

Ph.D. Princeton, IEEE, AVS, and ECS Fellow

Chair Professor of Electronic Engineering

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/302l/lectures/node57.html

This fellow said that if someone was foolish enough to short circuit a battery, therefore I was a fool, or did a foolish thing, or was suspected to be a fool but spoke and removed all doubt. The nuttiest bastards in the room invented devises that changed human history. If someone can prove which way the electrons move they might win the Nobel prize. I have a few ideas. Remember, it's the crazy bastards with the imagination.

I was foreman for many years at a German owned repair shop. The son of the founder is a good friend and called me the other day for help with a 69 Jag e type that had a charging system problem. He knows no theory but can fix electrical with the masters. We put our heads together and after a few hours we closed the shop making little progress. A week later I asked if he fixed it and he did. "What was it" I asked. "It was a bad wire" he said. He could have fixed it by himself but didn't want to dance with Lucas the prince of darkness by himself. He knew I fiddled with those cars so he asked me over.

September 1972 said:

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/302l/lectures/node57.html

This fellow said that if someone was foolish enough to short circuit a battery, therefore I was a fool, or did a foolish thing, or was suspected to be a fool but spoke and removed all doubt. The nuttiest bastards in the room invented devises that changed human history. If someone can prove which way the electrons move they might win the Nobel prize. I have a few ideas. Remember, it's the crazy bastards with the imagination.

I was foreman for many years at a German owned repair shop. The son of the founder is a good friend and called me the other day for help with a 69 Jag e type that had a charging system problem. He knows no theory but can fix electrical with the masters. We put our heads together and after a few hours we closed the shop making little progress. A week later I asked if he fixed it and he did. "What was it" I asked. "It was a bad wire" he said. He could have fixed it by himself but didn't want to dance with Lucas the prince of darkness by himself. He knew I fiddled with those cars so he asked me over.

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So, did he fix it himself? Or you helped? Im confused. You said you asked him was it fixed and he said yes. "It was a bad wire"

Not relevant to anything. I just got confused reading it.

The subject matter that you and Steve are discussing is way over my head. Lol

KBuck.

My friend is like most if not all car guys including myself as we near retirement, sometimes we think we are losing our edge and our ego needs propped up.

I studied a schematic before I went to help him and familiarized him with the charging system circuit and we checked a few things and then it was the end of the day. He wouldn't tell me how long it took him to fix it but if I know him, he could have been at it for 10 hours straight.

The point I was making is that two heads are always better than one, especially when dealing with tough electrical issues.

If you want a fun read, google 69 Jaguar E Type charging system issues. What a nightmare design, it's as if the jaguar electrical engineer that designed the system shut out anybody else from successfully fixing a defective charging system!

KBUCK1 said:

Im confused.

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Don't worry - so is he. Nothing he's saying makes sense, and he isn't responding to direct questions about his logic (or LACK thereof).

The Cliff's Notes version is: don't ground your radiator. ;D

All this gabbing and no one mentioned the PH of the coolant?

WheelHorse said:

All this gabbing and no one mentioned the PH of the coolant?

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Well, the thread title is "Electrolysis Question" not something like "Acid - Base Question". That would be a whole other argument. ;D

Ron Davis offers a grounding kit.
"As a manufacturer of best in class aluminum radiators for over 30 years, we can tell you with confidence that only a very small percentage of customized vehicles are grounded properly. Poor grounding leads to all kinds of difficult to troubleshoot problems. Poor grounding can also promote electrolysis, which can lead to the failure of an aluminum radiator, head gaskets, or intake gaskets.
Our Master Grounding Kits have been designed to eliminate the guesswork and provide you with the exact parts you need to get the job done right the first time. In addition, they are a vital component in preventing electrolysis damage to cooling system components."
http://www.rondavisradiators.com/Grounding%20Kit%20Cut%20Sheet_v2.pdf

Ron Davis radiators "Testing for electrolysis in cooling systems"

Griffin Thermal Products "electrolysis"

Also, flowing fluids generate a static charge in a process called flow electrification.

Notice they never say ground the radiator to the frame though, just that bad grounds make it an issue.

My instructions on my 3rd Ron Davis radiator were to ground it. I don't recall if it was to the battery or the body. I know that solved one of the problems I had with radiator #2 (extreme black corrosion in the passenger side tank which was revealed by DPA).

Todd Z.

Every piece of metal in the bronco is grounded. Ron is correct, poor grounding causes the circuit to search for a ground and a radiator is a likely target but anything can happen and usually does.

Google electrical ground and read it and try to understand the theory of basic circuit design. If one does not know ohms law backwards and forwards and can compute watts, amps, and volts if two are known, then a little education is required. Once you get it you will say, oh yea!!