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Another Bronco Lean Question

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norm02

norm02

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Yes.

I'm wondering if the new bushings are in right side up.

I've had some where the top and bottom markings weren't legible. I had to measure and remark them before installing them.



That’s what I think the issue is but they swear up and down that they were installed correctly both times. If they aren’t installed correctly then the issue should remain after he tries his new spring theory.

One other idea that just came to mind was if I were to put a bubble level across the tops of the Radius Arms shouldn’t it read close if everything is lined up properly?


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bronconut73

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Not really.
I have seen arms look okay but when you pull the axle you see that they "are not" parallel.

The arms need to be installed as low and parallel as possible with the axle completely disconnected from the eb. Of course the bushings must be installed correctly or none of the other stuff will matter though.


This is why it is so important to find an eb friendly garage. These guys are not or they would not have ordered new springs.
As complicated as the C-Bushing install is....it is early Bronco 101. Those dudes just do not know.....or they think they know better than you.
If it is level with new springs it will be because they figured it out and corrected the C-Bushing install at the same time as the new spring install.

Just sayin'....

But good luck Hoss and keep us posted.
 
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norm02

norm02

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Not really.
I have seen arms look okay but when you pull the axle you see that they "are not" parallel.

The arms need to be installed as low and parallel as possible with the axle completely disconnected from the eb. Of course the bushings must be installed correctly or none of the other stuff will matter though.


This is why it is so important to find an eb friendly garage. These guys are not or they would not have ordered new springs.
As complicated as the C-Bushing install is....it is early Bronco 101. Those dudes just do not know.....or they think they know better than you.
If it is level with new springs it will be because they figured it out and corrected the C-Bushing install at the same time as the new spring install.

Just sayin'....

But good luck Hoss and keep us posted.



The funny thing is that I used this shop to install the same Energy Suspension bushings on my ‘77 Bronco (20 years ago) and it’s the same guy running the place now that it was back then. I agree with everyone in that the C Bushings are installed incorrectly and I guess I’ll sit tight while he works through his trial and error...


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blubuckaroo

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Another thing to consider.
If the old "C" bushings were loose, they wouldn't apply the radial force to the donut bracket like the new "C" bushings do. The springs would support the weight in a level position regardless of the "C" Bushing.
Following that thought, you don't know if your radius arms, or the frame for that matter, are correct.
Back to square 1.
 
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norm02

norm02

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Another thing to consider.

If the old "C" bushings were loose, they wouldn't apply the radial force to the donut bracket like the new "C" bushings do. The springs would support the weight in a level position regardless of the "C" Bushing.

Following that thought, you don't know if your radius arms, or the frame for that matter, are correct.

Back to square 1.



The original “C” bushings weren’t loose and the bolts that held the caps on were tight. The truck has been in my family since it was new and it’s never been wrecked or abused so I don’t see how the frame or Radius Arms could be bent. I do appreciate everyone’s opinions and theories so please keep them coming!




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norm02

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One other thought I just had... Wouldn’t the caster be thrown off if the C-Bushings were installed incorrectly?? They have an alignment rack at their shop so if thats the case wouldn’t they be able to check their mistake that way as well?


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blubuckaroo

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The original “C” bushings weren’t loose and the bolts that held the caps on were tight. The truck has been in my family since it was new and it’s never been wrecked or abused so I don’t see how the frame or Radius Arms could be bent. I do appreciate everyone’s opinions and theories so please keep them coming!




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Wow!
An original roadster in its original family.
That's a story I want to hear.
 
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norm02

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Wow!

An original roadster in its original family.

That's a story I want to hear.



Sold new from my grandfather’s Ford dealership and it got traded back in a year later. My Grandfather decided to keep it and he passed it on to my Dad and then it was passed down to me. Attached picture is from 1987 that’s me with it


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DirtDonk

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What i'm referring to is how an out of spec radius arm will make the whole car unlevel.
What it's doing is forcing one side up and the other side down. Since the donut bracket is so far back, the whole side (front and back) are affected.

I see what you’re saying and that makes sense but if one of the Radius Arms was bent wouldn’t it have sat uneven with the factory bushings too?

Not necessarily.
When all the bushings were new maybe that would be the case. But with old tired (almost 50 years tired!) bushings, any input that a radius arm has can be slightly skewed. Therefore what was once a bent arm and a leaning Bronco, could well have settled down as the bushings got loose.
Just as an incorrectly installed new bushing might not show up as such, if it's actually "correcting" for a damaged arm.

In your case it does not sound like this is the issue, since you know the history of the vehicle. But in cases of an unknown new-to-you EB that could have been abused by 15 different PO's, some of us end up with crooked Broncos after new bushings are installed.

That’s what I think the issue is but they swear up and down that they were installed correctly both times. If they aren’t installed correctly then the issue should remain after he tries his new spring theory.

Yep. Unless the springs are unequal!
Be quite the coincidence of course, but springs are still not an exact science. Just an art that allows for some leeway. So even brand new springs can be uneven.
There is precedence then...

One other idea that just came to mind was if I were to put a bubble level across the tops of the Radius Arms shouldn’t it read close if everything is lined up properly?

Probably not. A bubble isn't precise enough. If there is any variation (and it would be hard to quantify, as they're trying to "be level" which is how you get the lean in the first place.
A good digital level though, and guaranteeing that the top that it's laid on isn't skewed by the stamping seam or other imperfections in the arms themselves, you might see a difference.
This is actually a good question. Don't know if we've ever tried that. Someone should!

The funny thing is that I used this shop to install the same Energy Suspension bushings on my ‘77 Bronco (20 years ago) and it’s the same guy running the place now that it was back then.

Doesn't really make a difference. Maybe that last time 20 years before they got lucky.
I think most of us have gotten lucky a time or two with C-bushings. I did not know about that stuff when I did my first set back in the seventies, and did not have a lean. Lots of installs have been good ones in spite of the potential for problems. But as many or more have not been so lucky, and have immediately gone sideways. Been that way since the first polyurethane C-bushings were around I suspect.
The softer and less molded rubber was more forgiving. Then you add the years of rust, variations in the molding process of the bushings, and add to that what is likely a higher number of bushing changes (oh, and the internet too!) and we're running into it more, and hearing about it more than ever.
It still "is a thing" to be wary of. But it's not going to happen every single time.

Another thing to consider.
If the old "C" bushings were loose, they wouldn't apply the radial force to the donut bracket like the new "C" bushings do. The springs would support the weight in a level position regardless of the "C" Bushing.

Beat me to it again!
And more clearly, as usual too.:cool:

One other thought I just had... Wouldn’t the caster be thrown off if the C-Bushings were installed incorrectly??

Yes. If the bushings were installed backwards in any way (any of the 4 pieces per side) then the alignment specs would show it. But it would have been better to know what you had before the bushings were changed.
If the bushings were simply installed using the wrong method, then no you would not be able to tell. There would still be a difference, but it might only be a couple of degrees and if you didn't know what you had before, you won't know if it's a good reading or a bad one.
On the other hand, if a full set of bushings was installed backwards, it would be so obvious that you would not even need the rack. But on the rack, you'd have literally double the rating of the bushing. So if you had +2° of positive caster before and installed 4° C-bushings backwards, you'd have right around -6° negative after!
But only if the whole set was done backwards. If only one half was done wrong, each side would fight the other and I'm not sure what the reading would be.
But you'd sure have one heck of a lean!

Doing the job "incorrecty" by not cleaning the surface on the axle and inside the radius arm caps, and by not using some sort of good lubricant to ease the transition that the squishing C-bushings are going through, the change could be as little as a couple of degrees off. It's enough to cause a lean, but not enough to easily discern an alignment issue.

That's how I see it anyway.

Paul
 
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norm02

norm02

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Not necessarily.
When all the bushings were new maybe that would be the case. But with old tired (almost 50 years tired!) bushings, any input that a radius arm has can be slightly skewed. Therefore what was once a bent arm and a leaning Bronco, could well have settled down as the bushings got loose.
Just as an incorrectly installed new bushing might not show up as such, if it's actually "correcting" for a damaged arm.

In your case it does not sound like this is the issue, since you know the history of the vehicle. But in cases of an unknown new-to-you EB that could have been abused by 15 different PO's, some of us end up with crooked Broncos after new bushings are installed.



Yep. Unless the springs are unequal!
Be quite the coincidence of course, but springs are still not an exact science. Just an art that allows for some leeway. So even brand new springs can be uneven.
There is precedence then...



Probably not. A bubble isn't precise enough. If there is any variation (and it would be hard to quantify, as they're trying to "be level" which is how you get the lean in the first place.
A good digital level though, and guaranteeing that the top that it's laid on isn't skewed by the stamping seam or other imperfections in the arms themselves, you might see a difference.
This is actually a good question. Don't know if we've ever tried that. Someone should!



Doesn't really make a difference. Maybe that last time 20 years before they got lucky.
I think most of us have gotten lucky a time or two with C-bushings. I did not know about that stuff when I did my first set back in the seventies, and did not have a lean. Lots of installs have been good ones in spite of the potential for problems. But as many or more have not been so lucky, and have immediately gone sideways. Been that way since the first polyurethane C-bushings were around I suspect.
The softer and less molded rubber was more forgiving. Then you add the years of rust, variations in the molding process of the bushings, and add to that what is likely a higher number of bushing changes (oh, and the internet too!) and we're running into it more, and hearing about it more than ever.
It still "is a thing" to be wary of. But it's not going to happen every single time.



Beat me to it again!
And more clearly, as usual too.:cool:



Yes. If the bushings were installed backwards in any way (any of the 4 pieces per side) then the alignment specs would show it. But it would have been better to know what you had before the bushings were changed.
If the bushings were simply installed using the wrong method, then no you would not be able to tell. There would still be a difference, but it might only be a couple of degrees and if you didn't know what you had before, you won't know if it's a good reading or a bad one.
On the other hand, if a full set of bushings was installed backwards, it would be so obvious that you would not even need the rack. But on the rack, you'd have literally double the rating of the bushing. So if you had +2° of positive caster before and installed 4° C-bushings backwards, you'd have right around -6° negative after!
But only if the whole set was done backwards. If only one half was done wrong, each side would fight the other and I'm not sure what the reading would be.
But you'd sure have one heck of a lean!

Doing the job "incorrecty" by not cleaning the surface on the axle and inside the radius arm caps, and by not using some sort of good lubricant to ease the transition that the squishing C-bushings are going through, the change could be as little as a couple of degrees off. It's enough to cause a lean, but not enough to easily discern an alignment issue.

That's how I see it anyway.

Paul



Everything makes sense and I appreciate the knowledge. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out and hopefully the end result is that it has new bushings on it and it sits as level as it did when I brought it to him!


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DirtDonk

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It'd be interesting to try a test sometime. No idea if it would work, or even has merit.
With the front bolt removed from the lower spring cup, and the rear one loose so the spring and cup are still retained but the front cap is free to float a bit, put the vehicle on the ground.
While it's on the ground under it's own weight, start to loosen all 8 bolts on the C-caps.

As you're doing this loosening to releive pressure on the C-bushings (but not too much pressure) keep an eye on the axle-to-frame measurements to see if they equalize as this is going on.
Obviously this would be easier with helpers, but could be done a bit at a time by a single person.

Wonder if it would make any difference. It "should" of course, but not sure if there are any other dynamics at work.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Oh, I meant to ask are you measuring this lean with a tape between the axle tubes and frame rails? You can't really judge it by just looking, and you really do need to know it down to a pretty low fraction to gauge what's going on.

And in your case, though the rear looks straight, the front looks like the body mounts are shorter on one side than the other. Your bumper is pretty kinked up though, which skews this visual clue no matter what. And body mounts are not always a good consistent measuring point anyway after all these years.
Hence the necessity of measuring from the axle to the frame.

Paul
 

73AnneBoleyn

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As complicated as the C-Bushing install is....it is early Bronco 101.

Man, ain't that the truth? I still don't know diddly squat about working on Broncos, but changing those was one of the first things I did.

I wonder if they're going to give you one stock height spring, and one with a couple inch lift. Problem solved!! :p;D
 
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norm02

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Man, ain't that the truth? I still don't know diddly squat about working on Broncos, but changing those was one of the first things I did.

I wonder if they're going to give you one stock height spring, and one with a couple inch lift. Problem solved!! :p;D



Lol! Let’s hope not but I may need to ask for the boxes that the new springs came in so that I can check part numbers!


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blubuckaroo

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It'd be interesting to try a test sometime. No idea if it would work, or even has merit.
With the front bolt removed from the lower spring cup, and the rear one loose so the spring and cup are still retained but the front cap is free to float a bit, put the vehicle on the ground.
While it's on the ground under it's own weight, start to loosen all 8 bolts on the C-caps.

As you're doing this loosening to releive pressure on the C-bushings (but not too much pressure) keep an eye on the axle-to-frame measurements to see if they equalize as this is going on.
Obviously this would be easier with helpers, but could be done a bit at a time by a single person.

Wonder if it would make any difference. It "should" of course, but not sure if there are any other dynamics at work.

Paul

Paul, I've actually done that and the car (truck, vehicle or whatever;)) ended up level.
What I did was removed and reinstalled the front axle without removing the springs and radius arms. I just put the radius arms on jack stands, pulled the radius arm caps, and rolled the axle out on it's own wheels. I rolled it back in the same way with new "C" bushings.
The only problem with doing it this way is you can't replace the donut bushings at the same time. But I use the rubber donuts and they've always outlived the "C" bushings on my car anyway.

For those wanting to just replace the "C" bushing to change their caster angle, this is an easier option.
 

DirtDonk

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Great to know! Thanks.
Glad you tried it instead of me! Sounds awkward to say the least. Guessing it wasn't though, as you make it sound like it was pretty straightforward. And as long as you have one bolt in the spring cup and the jackstands in a good spot, things should hold pretty steady.

Good to know it was level with the caps off.

Thanks again.

Paul
 

mpboxer

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What I did was removed and reinstalled the front axle without removing the springs and radius arms. I just put the radius arms on jack stands, pulled the radius arm caps, and rolled the axle out on it's own wheels.

This sounds super scary. Good diagnostic tool though.
 

blubuckaroo

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This sounds super scary. Good diagnostic tool though.

No, it was all very stable. The jackstands were under the radius arms, so they were pancake flat.
The axle roll out and in would have been wonky for one person, but with two you can guide everything together pretty easily.
 
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norm02

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So they called me today and let me know that they’re having trouble finding new 6 cylinder springs that aren’t progressive. I suggested that he just swap the front springs to either side and see if that changes anything. He said that would probably work and he’d get it done on Monday morning and let me know.


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DirtDonk

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Well the extra wait kind of sucks. I thought it was kind of nice of them to offer new springs of course, but also thought that they could have saved themselves some time and money if they'd just swap the springs to see if the lean moves.
It "shouldn't" in this case I don't think, but you never know.

And new springs would have been a bonus!

Paul
 
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