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GT40 P heads

ribbits

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
130
Anyone running the GT40 "P" heads with long tube headers? If so do you have any problems with the plug wire clearance?
 

House

Minutia Militia
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
2,394
Lots of threads on here about the P heads, but the major consensus is to use the Sanderson headers from Bronco Hut if you want the least amount of headaches...
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
Those that do try the standard headers will usually end up "clearancing" a couple of the tubes to make room. It's usually not pretty, but they seem to be happy with the results.
In other words, it works, but the Sanderson's are cleaner.

You already have some headers you're using? Or just like the long-tube style better?

Paul
 
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ribbits

ribbits

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
130
Lots of threads on here about the P heads, but the major consensus is to use the Sanderson headers from Bronco Hut if you want the least amount of headaches...

Thanks,, I tried to search for some posts but must not have done something right?? I will check out those headers.. I'm accumulating parts for my 75 redo project.. Right now I've collected a Standard 302 W/AOD out of a Crown Vic and a 302 P head w/ 4R70W out of a 4x4 97 explorer.. I'm presently dickering with a guy for a three bar 302/4R70W 4x4 96 explorer.. I need to make up my mind before I end up with a junk yard! What do y'all recommend?
 
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ribbits

ribbits

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
130
Those that do try the standard headers will usually end up "clearancing" a couple of the tubes to make room. It's usually not pretty, but they seem to be happy with the results.
In other words, it works, but the Sanderson's are cleaner.

You already have some headers you're using? Or just like the long-tube style better?

Paul
Thanks Paul,
No I'm open for suggestions?? I have long tubes on the 69 and they rub my 37" front tires a little.. Thinking about spacers but heard they are bad? Don't know if the shorties would be less in the way on the 75 but I would it assume it would depend upon the lift I decide on ? Hell, I don't even know the difference other than the long tubes may give a little better evacuation thus little more power?? Right now the 75 has stock manifold.. I wish there was a list of part numbers and suppliers somewhere that provided the best matched lift heights, axles, shocks, disc brakes, radiator, engine swap choices, serpentine belts, etc. etc. so I could just order right off the list! Then all would have to worry about is putting it all together? Not only am I old, but a little lazy too!
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
Nah, search is weak here sometimes.
You'll likely have better luck using google with this website as the common denominator.
I forget the proper protocols at the moment, but it's something like putting classicbroncos.com inside quotes, or brackets, or something like that.
Someone will chime in with the exact procedure.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
I have long tubes on the 69 and they rub my 37" front tires a little.

Interesting. Most do not, but apparently some do! Are yours standard, or fenderwell exit headers by chance?

Thinking about spacers but heard they are bad?

Not necessarily. Cheap is bad, expensive is good.
Usually the cheap thin ones are not recommended, but the thicker ones are typically of higher quality (and cost) anyway. We sell a very robust and well made set of 1.25" thick spacers.
Seems you'd need a fairly thick spacer anyway, for header clearance?

Don't know if the shorties would be less in the way on the 75 but I would it assume it would depend upon the lift I decide on?

No, really no difference with a lift or not. Or whether suspension or body lift.
Shorties are just more convenient pretty much in every parameter. That's what they're for in the first place really. Originally for keeping the factory exhaust system intact for smog reasons on performance cars, they simply replaced the exhaust manifold and coupled to the factory connector on Mustangs. Pretty much started an entire market segment right there.

Performance exhaust "tuning" can be better with long-tube headers, but shorties still give you a performance increase that you'll notice.

Hell, I don't even know the difference other than the long tubes may give a little better evacuation thus little more power??

Pretty much, yes. Like anything else though, it depends on design, size, shape, routing, length, internal features, etc etc etc...
But the engineers can do more with a long-tube than a short-tube, if they're tasked to do so. Depends on where that extra power is developed though, as to just how much of it you can feel and use in a street or off-road driven truck.

And shorties make it easier nowadays to route a 2-into-1 (basically a "single") exhaust where you cross the driver's side tubing over to the passenger side (like stock) in a clean and out of the way manner.
Dual exhausts are cool, but have way too many downsides on an Early Bronco. So much so that formerly die-hard dual exhaust people willingly convert back to single exhaust on their Broncos.
Shorties just make that transition easier.

Right now the 75 has stock manifold.. I wish there was a list of part numbers and suppliers somewhere that provided the best matched lift heights, axles, shocks, disc brakes, radiator, engine swap choices, serpentine belts, etc. etc. so I could just order right off the list!

Then all would have to worry about is putting it all together? Not only am I old, but a little lazy too!

Yeah, that might be nice. But good luck with that "best" part!
What's best? For you, or the next person? Someone who's wanting a street queen to go to cars-n-coffee shows on weekends and to the lake with the family? Or the person who's intending to take it to the Rubicon for a week and then leave it at the hunting cabin for most of the year?
We've been talking Bronco here for many years, and there are still very few "bests" in most categories. At least not that are the best fit for everyone.
Just doesn't happen very often.

And when looks come into the equation, too many different personal preferences here too. Which is why there are so many products for so few vehicles.

Paul
 

sykanr0ng

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 11, 2014
Messages
5,363
Nah, search is weak here sometimes.
You'll likely have better luck using google with this website as the common denominator.
I forget the proper protocols at the moment, but it's something like putting classicbroncos.com inside quotes, or brackets, or something like that.
Someone will chime in with the exact procedure.

Paul

Add site://classicbroncos.com to whatever you are searching for.
 
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ribbits

ribbits

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
130
Interesting. Most do not, but apparently some do! Are yours standard, or fenderwell exit headers by chance?



Not necessarily. Cheap is bad, expensive is good.
Usually the cheap thin ones are not recommended, but the thicker ones are typically of higher quality (and cost) anyway. We sell a very robust and well made set of 1.25" thick spacers.
Seems you'd need a fairly thick spacer anyway, for header clearance?



No, really no difference with a lift or not. Or whether suspension or body lift.
Shorties are just more convenient pretty much in every parameter. That's what they're for in the first place really. Originally for keeping the factory exhaust system intact for smog reasons on performance cars, they simply replaced the exhaust manifold and coupled to the factory connector on Mustangs. Pretty much started an entire market segment right there.

Performance exhaust "tuning" can be better with long-tube headers, but shorties still give you a performance increase that you'll notice.



Pretty much, yes. Like anything else though, it depends on design, size, shape, routing, length, internal features, etc etc etc...
But the engineers can do more with a long-tube than a short-tube, if they're tasked to do so. Depends on where that extra power is developed though, as to just how much of it you can feel and use in a street or off-road driven truck.

And shorties make it easier nowadays to route a 2-into-1 (basically a "single") exhaust where you cross the driver's side tubing over to the passenger side (like stock) in a clean and out of the way manner.
Dual exhausts are cool, but have way too many downsides on an Early Bronco. So much so that formerly die-hard dual exhaust people willingly convert back to single exhaust on their Broncos.
Shorties just make that transition easier.



Yeah, that might be nice. But good luck with that "best" part!
What's best? For you, or the next person? Someone who's wanting a street queen to go to cars-n-coffee shows on weekends and to the lake with the family? Or the person who's intending to take it to the Rubicon for a week and then leave it at the hunting cabin for most of the year?
We've been talking Bronco here for many years, and there are still very few "bests" in most categories. At least not that are the best fit for everyone.
Just doesn't happen very often.

And when looks come into the equation, too many different personal preferences here too. Which is why there are so many products for so few vehicles.

Paul
On the 69 the build sheet says headers are Hooker Super Comp (customized) ?? The front tires also contacts the radius arms at the same time.. Not much but does contact if the wheels are cut sharp all the way.. I will try to make a measurement to see if the 1.5" spacers will clear.. I'm guessing something a little less may work? Does the same apply regarding quality using maybe a 3/4" or 1" spacer? Also, if you don't do the same to the rear will it affect the handling or drive? Regarding the 75, because the only thing I've ever won in my life was a complete dual set up from the raffle in Townsend last time, I'm committed to using it.. I want to make the 75 a casual street driver the better half can drive and occasionally maybe a car show as we have other show cars.. She's all on board with this so that will definitely make life easier with the build.. Want to convert the 3 speed to a auto and also want to convert to EFI for dependability.. Maybe the most lift without compromising street handling.. No off road as that is what the 69 is for. Disc brakes all around and air conditioning.. Leather interior and one of those shinny tilt steering columns.. Don't really care to much about horsepower.. Maybe run 33"-35" tires with appropriate gearing..
Wouldn't it be cool if each EB supplier could come up with EB categories like rock banging crawler, mall crawler, street machine, show machine, OEM machine, complete with part numbers, sequence of progression instructions for each assuming a body off rolling frame to begin with.. Even paint codes and metal treatment procedures, electrical upgrades, lighting, instrument and engine swaps choices.. Maybe provide pics of every aspect of the build with instructions..NOW that is something I would be willing to pay big bucks for! Maybe should one elect a build from a specific suppliers plan, they would agree to apply discounts to parts allowing the builder to recoup the cost of the "plan"? Maybe even a "one price covers all" type of thing regarding parts?
Just a thought? Although I said I may be a little lazy, that's not to say I'm mechanically lazy but more computer and research lazy.. Not scared of computers as actually have been awarded a couple of US patents regarding computer programs.. Just more like "burnt out" on them, besides eyesight is failing and reading a lot along with figuring out what all the abbreviations stand for stresses me out!
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
You're right. And I suppose I should be cued in to selling more stuff. But I always seem to gravitate back to selling stuff on an individual basis to an individual.
But your idea is actually quite good. These days especially.
Lots of us would rather spend less time staring at small parts on a screen!

It's probably something Jim has been contemplating (he's good at forward thinking), and it's how we ended up with basically a "body in a box" kits we have now.
But likely he's not had time to dedicate fully to it yet. I'm gonna' find out though!

Paul
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
Oh, and as far as the spacers are concerned, if done right then yes, something in a 3/4 or 1 inch would be fine too.
I do believe however, that the reason you see them more often in thicker than 1" increments is that it makes it easier to add studs. This type is almost like an adapter, in that you bolt it to your hub, and it has it's own studs that stick through the wheel.
Pretty much anything over 3/8" thick is going to need longer studs for most wheels. Maybe there are some wheels with a certain profile to the hub area that will still bolt on with shorter studs (stock studs with a spacer on top of them) but most will not do so safely.

Here's the type you're looking for: https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Aluminum_Wheel_Spacers_Kit_Blue/earlybroncowheelaccessories where the spacer itself is high quality billet aluminum, and has it's own studs.

If you thought you could get away with, for example a 1/2" spacer, as long as you could find some 1/2" longer wheel studs that fit the Bronco hub you could likely do it on the cheap. But there was a hunt recently for some likely candidates and everyone involved came up short hunting for proper studs.
I don't remember exactly why the longer ones were needed. Not sure if it was for a spacer or thicker wheels or whatever. But you might end up spending more time hunting than doing.

For having them on the front only, many will do just that. Most don't claim to feel any difference, but on paper it's there and likely just because Broncos are vague enough on the street anyway, that any change in the feel of it is not noted. Especially with owners that are not really that experienced at driving Broncos.
More and more are spending the extra though and matching the spacers on the rear.

Remember that in many cases the front track is wider than the rear anyway, so there is precedent for it to not make as huge a difference as it could if everything was built equally. The wider front track helps with Ackerman angles I believe, and probably other things as well.
Broncos were minimally enhanced this way, with perhaps less than 1/2" variation or so. And according to magazine tech articles of the day, there was almost a yearly variation on that too! Some years were reported as having equal track front and rear, while others were posted up in different fractions of an inch.
And if you add disc brakes that might change it fractions more.

Could have been mis-printed, or they could have just read it off of the previous year's marketing sheets, or someone at Ford gave them erroneous info, or any number of scenarios.
So it's hard to tell without measuring anymore.

The '60's through '80's GM trucks had a much wider front track than the rear and seemed to handle pretty good.
The proof would be in the driving.

Paul
 
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ribbits

ribbits

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
130
You're right. And I suppose I should be cued in to selling more stuff. But I always seem to gravitate back to selling stuff on an individual basis to an individual.
But your idea is actually quite good. These days especially.
Lots of us would rather spend less time staring at small parts on a screen!

It's probably something Jim has been contemplating (he's good at forward thinking), and it's how we ended up with basically a "body in a box" kits we have now.
But likely he's not had time to dedicate fully to it yet. I'm gonna' find out though!

Paul

Prolly would be a monumental task to set up but I'm bettin "these days especially" it would pay dividends.. Lots of people have good mechanical abilities out there and maybe not computer skills? Surely some just want to build and build asap.. Besides,, always got a ace in the hole, THIS WEBSITE!
 
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ribbits

ribbits

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
130
Oh, and as far as the spacers are concerned, if done right then yes, something in a 3/4 or 1 inch would be fine too.
I do believe however, that the reason you see them more often in thicker than 1" increments is that it makes it easier to add studs. This type is almost like an adapter, in that you bolt it to your hub, and it has it's own studs that stick through the wheel.
Pretty much anything over 3/8" thick is going to need longer studs for most wheels. Maybe there are some wheels with a certain profile to the hub area that will still bolt on with shorter studs (stock studs with a spacer on top of them) but most will not do so safely.

Here's the type you're looking for: https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Aluminum_Wheel_Spacers_Kit_Blue/earlybroncowheelaccessories where the spacer itself is high quality billet aluminum, and has it's own studs.

If you thought you could get away with, for example a 1/2" spacer, as long as you could find some 1/2" longer wheel studs that fit the Bronco hub you could likely do it on the cheap. But there was a hunt recently for some likely candidates and everyone involved came up short hunting for proper studs.
I don't remember exactly why the longer ones were needed. Not sure if it was for a spacer or thicker wheels or whatever. But you might end up spending more time hunting than doing.

For having them on the front only, many will do just that. Most don't claim to feel any difference, but on paper it's there and likely just because Broncos are vague enough on the street anyway, that any change in the feel of it is not noted. Especially with owners that are not really that experienced at driving Broncos.
More and more are spending the extra though and matching the spacers on the rear.

Remember that in many cases the front track is wider than the rear anyway, so there is precedent for it to not make as huge a difference as it could if everything was built equally. The wider front track helps with Ackerman angles I believe, and probably other things as well.
Broncos were minimally enhanced this way, with perhaps less than 1/2" variation or so. And according to magazine tech articles of the day, there was almost a yearly variation on that too! Some years were reported as having equal track front and rear, while others were posted up in different fractions of an inch.
And if you add disc brakes that might change it fractions more.

Could have been mis-printed, or they could have just read it off of the previous year's marketing sheets, or someone at Ford gave them erroneous info, or any number of scenarios.
So it's hard to tell without measuring anymore.

The '60's through '80's GM trucks had a much wider front track than the rear and seemed to handle pretty good.
The proof would be in the driving.

Paul

Thanks for the read Paul.. Will be checking them out. I heard somewhere that the biggest problem with spacers is people tend to not re-check the torque very often?
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
That's very possible. Not really an issue as far as I know with the type we've been discussing.
But with a standard spacer using either stock length studs, or longer ones, this could be a real issue.

I was thinking after re-reading my earlier reply that I'd neglected to mention the extra stress of a longer stud.
There's not much difference in the stresses imparted to the hub itself, between a 1/2" thick spacer with longer studs, and a 1/2 spacer using stock studs (if that was even possible, which I don't think it is) but the added stress on the longer studs themselves might be an issue.

So you've got longer studs to contend with on one hand, and perhaps cheaper materials with the thin spacers on the other. Between those to things, flexing and compressing and lug nut loosening could be a big problem.

But as far as I know, and we've got plenty of people here using them that can confirm or deny this, the type of thicker spacer using new studs does not have an issue with lugs loosening up over time.
While it's not a bad practice to "check your nuts" in the first hundred miles or so, and periodically thereafter, it should not be a requirement of using a spacer either.

Should be plenty of stories from those members here using them though. Curious to hear feedback on the loosening thing.

Paul
 

Hozr

Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
1,434
Loc.
Oly, WA
As far as plug clearance on P heads - get the ceramic boot plug wires and the sanderson headers (I may have both for sale used if interested).

I ate a TON of plug wires causing all manner of problems. The plug boot covers only help for a few weeks until you eat more plug wires. Silicone boots WILL melt. The ceramic boots are the only solution to P heads.
 
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ribbits

ribbits

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
130
As far as plug clearance on P heads - get the ceramic boot plug wires and the sanderson headers (I may have both for sale used if interested).

I ate a TON of plug wires causing all manner of problems. The plug boot covers only help for a few weeks until you eat more plug wires. Silicone boots WILL melt. The ceramic boots are the only solution to P heads.

Yea,, would defiantly be interested in those.. Can you PM me with details? Are the ceramic plug boots 90 deg bends? Also, what if I just use the factory manifolds with the P heads? I'm not real fired up about horsepower but more reliability but I don't know if that will work? Also, I use those asbestos looking heat sleeves on the 69 and they are pretty close to the headers and never had a problem? I actually use those sleeves on about everything under the hood including the fuel lines? They are kinda pricey though.. While I got your attention, maybe I can pick your brain a little further. What's the real difference between the standard 302 heads and the GT40 non-P heads? I know the P heads have a little more compression but was wondering what horsepower gains are there? Standard manifold vs gt40 heads and gt40 heads vs gt40 P heads? Ive got two standard 302's right now both from broncos.. Thanks!
 
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