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Any updates on dual vs single plane manifold, and TBI's?

DirtDonk

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Thought the name sounded familiar right away too. Where do we know him from Todd? From Holley, or from forums?

Paul
 

toddz69

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Thought the name sounded familiar right away too. Where do we know him from Todd? From Holley, or from forums?

Paul

I recognize his name from the fullsizebronco.com forum. He did a bunch of tech writeups there and was writing about brake booster upgrades for the 78-79 Broncos (one item I recall) as well as the Lincoln big caliper upgrade around the same time as I discovered it and wrote about it on the Bronco mailing lists.

Todd Z.
 

DirtDonk

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OK, thanks. From wayback!
Unfortunately fullsizebronco.com still won't let me log on. Even the moderator says "just post more often and it will let you post." What?
Heck, it won't even let me log in. How am I supposed to get my post count up, so that I can get my post count up, if I can't log on?

Been going around this for years. I was a member many years ago, but when it made me sign up again... That's when the fight started...;D

Paul
 

toddz69

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Yeah, I'm a member there too but my post count is so low that I can't post in certain sections, can't post anything for sale, etc. Pretty frustrating! Not something we experience here with our friendly, neighborhood webmaster :).

Todd Z.
 

bmc69

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Weird. I’m a permanent member at fsb..have been for a long time.
 

DirtDonk

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Me too, but guess I got double-secret probation for not logging on enough or something.
Oh well, when the mods can't figure out what is going on, it's likely a good thing for me as it leaves me with more time to hang out here!

Thanks. Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
Whatever that was? Oh yeah... Intakes and TBI's.;D

Maybe I'll bring it up again sometime in a separate thread for discussion.

Paul
 
OP
OP
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OX1

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Me too, but guess I got double-secret probation for not logging on enough or something.
Oh well, when the mods can't figure out what is going on, it's likely a good thing for me as it leaves me with more time to hang out here!

Thanks. Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
Whatever that was? Oh yeah... Intakes and TBI's.;D

Maybe I'll bring it up again sometime in a separate thread for discussion.

Paul

Could be because Bill and I are lifetime members, but I've gone probably a year without logging in.

Nevermind, just saw you said you were lifetime also. ?:?
 

DirtDonk

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Don't think I said that. If I did I'm not sure about that. Just a regular old member from a long time ago.

Thanks

Paul
 

73azbronco

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I am surprised edrock or holley of someone has not remade the weiend like single plane low rpm torqy intakes of the 60's.

That said, the last holley tech I talked to said it was OK to use a higher rated rpm single plane. Reason being, the higher rpm rating is for carbed engines. Needing the higher rpm to get fuel atomized correctly. The TBI is already atomized so the taller runners really dont impact the lower end like it would with a carb.
 

DirtDonk

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Thanks. That's the "forum" I was thinking about when I made that other comment.
I bet that's what it is.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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That said, the last holley tech I talked to said it was OK to use a higher rated rpm single plane. Reason being, the higher rpm rating is for carbed engines. Needing the higher rpm to get fuel atomized correctly. The TBI is already atomized so the taller runners really dont impact the lower end like it would with a carb.

I would tend to agree with that. Which is why I'm leaning towards using one of the other intakes such as the Torker II.
I might try both the Performer and the Torker as an experiment, but I sure hate re-doing something if it runs the first time!

Maybe I'll try the Torker first then. Since so many others have been using the Performer, that would seem a good way to proceed.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Then again, there's the RPM Air Gap with it's cut down plenum divider.
Which is what I was going to do with the Performer anyway. Cut down at least the front/primary area a bit to spread the signal out to both venturi.

Decisions, decisions...
Might just come down to hood clearance after all.

Paul
 
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OX1

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Then again, there's the RPM Air Gap with it's cut down plenum divider.
Which is what I was going to do with the Performer anyway. Cut down at least the front/primary area a bit to spread the signal out to both venturi.

Decisions, decisions...
Might just come down to hood clearance after all.

Paul

Torker II (4.59" carb pad height) is about 1/2 inch taller than Performer (4.12). Looks like the dual plane Weiand Warrior I have is somewhere in between (no carb pad height listed). But it doesn't look like Torker II would be a major issue with height.
 

DirtDonk

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That half inch does not seem like a deal-breaker. Especially with a 1" body lift (or a 3/4" body lift like I have).
Did you catch the height on the Air Gap by any chance?

I've always liked Weiand manifolds, but I seem to remember a lack of great info on them. On their own website and anywhere else.
You found any good info elsewhere on them?

Paul
 

pcf_mark

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I'm not an expert on TBI but I have some experience with intake manifold design. I also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

The length and diameter of the intake runner determine where it makes power. Exactly the same as a header - would you use a 2 1/8" primary tube on a 302? No. Not if the air is atomized, hot or cold, planets are aligned etc. The physical dimensions determine the Helmholtz tuning of the intake manifold which determines where it makes power. Which is why I would pick an intake matched to my head and cam.

There is an exception to this and it is both drivability and horsepower related. A carb with a big open plenum (single plane) makes a very poor signal to the carb at low speed and does not give good signal to the carb to draw fuel. With TBI you should not have this problem. Also a carb on top of a big plenum with big intake runners can have wall wetting because the fuel is not atomized and fuel falls out of the air stream. Again not a problem with TBI. Both of these would indicate a big intake is not going to give you same problems on a TBI as a carb which I agree with. But if the big intake is not tuned to your cam and head you are leaving power and torque on the table. You won't get nasty drivability problems like a carb from it but you will still have a mis-matched part in your system. There is a reason the 5.0 intake manifold has runners wrapping up and over the intake manifold - torque.

Just thinking out loud.
 

DirtDonk

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All of that makes sense. Especially since you stayed at a Holiday Inn!;D

The Performer is still probably the better choice then, for a low-rpm used engine. But with the slightly higher tuned Torker and RPM versions not being way out of line for a mildly upgraded engine either.

Probably then either would work acceptably well, with perhaps the slight advantage still going to the Performer.
I thought I remembered Engine Masters in one of their early videos swapping between intakes in a follow-up. Was that mentioned in this thread?
But I also seem to remember thinking the results were inconclusive for what we needed. Guess I'll have to go back and check them out to see what it was I was seeing.

Thanks

Paul
 

broncnaz

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You can find good used torker 289 manifolds on ebay for pretty good prices. I ran one on my bronco for years. Now it sits on the shelf. Did take some carb tuning to get it running good but I never had a issue with it. Plus it really seemed to open up at high RPM which is what it was more or less for but low end didnt seem to suffer. I eventually went to a dual plane abeit it was the RPM type but I saw no real differance in power.

While not really TBI related I have a article somewhere where they dyno'ed the performer, RPM and torkerII all on the same engine. The RPM manifold pretty much beat or equaled the other 2 at all levels. It was kinda suprising to see that the RPM was as good as it was all around. Id had figured it would have less lowend than the perofrmer but it wasnt the case.
 

DirtDonk

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...While not really TBI related I have a article somewhere where they dyno'ed the performer, RPM and torkerII all on the same engine. The RPM manifold pretty much beat or equaled the other 2 at all levels. It was kinda suprising to see that the RPM was as good as it was all around. Id had figured it would have less lowend than the perofrmer but it wasnt the case.

I remember tests like that too. I wonder if they only went down to 2500 or so on the dyno though? If that was the case, maybe they didn't quite catch any advantage that the Performer might have had.
Then again, maybe not.

I remember my Holley Z-series intake was an interesting one. The only thing Holley did to make it a "low rpm" torque builder was to add a crossover tube between the #4 and #8 cylinders on an otherwise single plane, divided plenum Street Dominator manifold.
Even though I was relatively happy with it, I never had any other aftermarket dual plane 4bbl intakes to compare it directly to.
Unfortunately too, the next engine will have more cam and cylinder head too, so I'll never really have a good back-to-back comparison.

Wish I had not sold it with my engine though. Would have been great to have it as an experiment between a Performer.

Paul
 

rguest3

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Last time I spoke with the Holley Sniper Tech Department, he recommended the intake choice be based on RPM use and how the engine is set-up. Performer for street use, Performer RPM and Torker for higher RPM.

They use the same recommendations for the TBI as they would for a carb. A Single or Dual Plane Manifold was not the issue.

He also recommended a 180' Thermostat to be used and not any lower. The TBI system would remain in Closed Loop if colder and close to 160'.
 
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