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Tie Rod Ends, Opinions Please

redfishtony

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
209
Loc.
Thomasville GA
While checking the front end on my 69 (Dana30)I discovered the ball joints on the tie rod and drag links are all worn and need to be replaced. Till this point I did not realize if these went bad you had to change out the entire thing and could not just change out the ball joints. As usual I'm thinking outside the box so here's my question.

Has anyone ever modified the original tie rod and drag links and put replaceable ends on them and if so would it be a safe modification. I'm thinking maybe cut-drill-tap-use newer ends. Am I crazy??

Thanks, TW
 

bmc69

Contributor
Bronco Guru
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Jun 11, 2004
Messages
11,852
All of the aftermarket DOM steering linkage kits use short replaceable ends. But most of those use larger than stock tie rod ends too...requiring that you ream the taper in the knuckle and pitman arms.
 

jperry1290

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
908
In the process of doing a hybrid Heim and Chevy TRE swap. Read up on both options before choosing what to do. If I had to do it again I would have gone with all TREs and avoided the heims.
 

broncodriver99

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Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
4,780
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Glen Allen, VA
I'm sure it could be done if you could find an acceptable tie rod end, but it would be way more work than just replacing whatever is worn out. Something I have come to realize while working on old trucks/Bronco is that I don't have to make it last or be serviceable forever, it just needs to last as long as I plan to drive it. All new steering linkage would likely last longer than any of us will be around.
 

jms5580

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Jan 22, 2011
Messages
281
Loc.
Bozeman, MT
I got a much beefier tie rod and used removable TRE from a chevy. Dad is a machinist and was able to machine some threads for me. Had to ream the knuckles. Should be able to get a reamer from someone on here, or by and sell after you're done like I did. I have had no issues as of yet.
 

BroncoMZ

Newbie
Joined
Jun 1, 2016
Messages
36
In the process of doing a hybrid Heim and Chevy TRE swap. Read up on both options before choosing what to do. If I had to do it again I would have gone with all TREs and avoided the heims.

I'm trying to decide on heims vs chevy 1 ton TRE. What was your reason for initially choosing the heims? Why do you want to change to TRE?
Thanks
 

bronkenn

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Bronco Guy
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Apr 27, 2017
Messages
2,662
Loc.
Southeast Ohio
WH sells a nice steering linkage kit that has the adjustable tie rods on each end and adjustable drag link. I was thinking about doing the same thing you are and threading the left side tie rod to adapt the shorter tie rod. By the time you do all the work and buy the needed parts it as easier to buy the kit already done. By the way I am glad I got the one from WH. It is a nice upgrade. Ken
 

DirtDonk

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I still happen to think that the style that WH and some of the other vendors sell is the best for keeping the geometry correct, while still gaining some strength advantages without breaking the bank.
We call ours the "3-Way Adjustable" version to describe the change to a 3-piece tie-rod with two short rod ends and a centerlink. As opposed to the short/long side style of the stocker.
WH 3-way adjustable steering linkage
Like some of the other options, if you ever need to replace one, you don't have to buy any more long bars.

The "GM 1-ton" setups, either home-made or as those linked to above are also fully adjustable, have short ends to make replacements less expensive too, and are arguably beefier still. In some areas anyway.
Where I think their weakness lies is in three areas. All having to do with the passenger side tie-rod end:
1. The new rod end puts the draglink farther out, making it longer. On the surface this is a good thing (longer links with shallower angles being an advantage in some cases) but it also puts it out of phase with the now-shorter trackbar for an effectively different angle.
It can be "tuned out" to a point by making sure that your pitman arm and trackbar brackets are made to optimize those angles.
To be sure, most people do not complain about excessive bumpsteer with these setups, but it can be an issue if you're not careful.

2. The orientation of the tapered hole puts the draglink on the vertical side of the tie-rod. This encourages more "tie rod roll" when steering. Can contribute to a slightly more vague feel and accelerates wear and tear on the rod ends.

3. And last, but not least, the design of the rod end is such that it has a necked-down area that becomes a weak link.
This is not a deal-breaker for most street driven rigs, unless you're running larger tires. Say 35's or larger.
But for an off-roader, it's an almost certain guarantee of bending the tie-rod end at that point. I've only heard of a few that have actually broken, but have probably seen 40 or 50 of them that have bent.
A lifetime warranty part from one of the major suppliers may reduce the pain a bit, but it's still a pain to deal with.

Never personally used spherical rod ends myself ("Heims") but they have their good and bad points too. Seen a lot more of them actually break, but it's hard to say if those were really a fault of the design, or just under-sized units to begin with.
The same company Ruff-Stuff mentioned above also makes a Bell-Beefer spherical rod end setup that seems the stuff for sure. Right up there with Bullet Proof (what was the name of the main company?) steering when it comes to that type of end.

I still prefer a tapered stud tie-rod end like the factories use, but they all can work well if made and sized right for the need.
If money is no object and ultimate strength is what you're after, our Clydesdale is hard to beat: WH Clydesdale
It's similar in geometry to the "1-ton" stuff, but with some improvements in most of the problem areas.
And second to none (that I know of) in the beef department.

Paul
 

BroncoMZ

Newbie
Joined
Jun 1, 2016
Messages
36
Paul, thank you for the evaluation and sharing your experiences for the various options available to us. My biuld is primarily for the street, but I want to plan accordingly so that should I decide to go off-road, my design will allow for the components necesary to do so.

I would install the WH Clydesdale kit for wheeling, but for street use and 33” tires, it’s overkill (IMO). Now, if WH offered a kit with 1-1/4 dia tubing and GM 1-ton TRE (fills the gap between the current 3 way adjustables and the Clydesdale), I would look no further.

There are several kits out there, but I prefer a thicker tube wall so I can tap the ends. The kits I looked at had a 1 ID so that the hex/round tube threaded adapter can be welded on the ends, which makes the wall thickness 1/8 for a 1-1/4 OD tubing.

This is my cost estimate:
$130 - complete 1-ton TRE set with jam nuts
$150 - Chromoly (4130) 1-1/4 dia x 1/4 wall tubing
$20 - (4) weld-on wrench hex
~$25 - pay local machine shop to drill (0.812) and tap (7/8-18) tube ends

Please let me know if my thinking is flawed in any way. Thank you.
 

AZ73

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Bronco Guru
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Mar 28, 2012
Messages
3,542
While I agree somewhat with Paul, having installed the ruff stuff set up, here's my take based on his comments:

1) The longer distance of the drag link makes it much easier to get the same angle with the track bar. Since the end of the drag link is connected to the pitman arm, the position of it's connection to the drag link will vary widely anyway, and it rarely sits at the same level. If you turn left, the connection point will be left of the track bar connection, and the track bar is shorter than the drag link anyway so any "out of phase" will happen the second you turn the wheel. Its effect is minimal.
2) Install these: https://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/R1768.html. that will prevent most of the rotation
3) Yes, the passenger side does have a neck down, but it's a well tested part on millions of trucks. Sure, if you're REALLY abusing it you might get a bend, but it would have to be the Driver's side pushing against the passenger side in between some boulders. Anything that had no pressure from the driver's side has a lot more weaker links - like your hands on the steering wheel. I doubt my tie rod end will ever bend. The clamp used on the 3-way noted above is much weaker.
 

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DirtDonk

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...3) Yes, the passenger side does have a neck down, but it's a well tested part on millions of trucks...

Actually, it's not. Tested that way on millions of trucks I mean.

You may be aware, but this tapered hole on the rod end is NOT meant to be a draglink hole. Never was in any OE application. Only what we use it for in custom setups.

It's original purpose was for a stud (tapered on one end, straight shank on the exposed end) to mount a steering stabilizer shock.
That's it. It was never intended to be the business end of a draglink for steering duties. Pushing and pulling at an angle. Only for lateral damping.
Hence the very common result of bent rod ends at a point that was not considered a weak link in it's original application, but turns into one when we ask them to do more work than originally designed for.

You're right that you may never bend one, and there are many running around set up on Broncos that have not bent yet. But I wasn't kidding when I said I'd seen at least 40 bent ones just with my own eyes. In many cases, on the first wheeling trip.
I remember one member here (or maybe on broncofix?) that had gone through three in a fairly short order.

Not sure what you meant when you said the clamp on the 3-way was weaker? Do you mean the adjusting sleeves and clamps are weaker than a heavy-wall tube with a jam nut? If so, then I agree with that for sure.
But that's not the part that bends. I only know a few that have bent their main tube on a 1-ton setup. But I don't think I've ever heard of an adjusting sleeve bending.
Not that they couldn't of course. Just that the stress isn't being applied directly on the weak link either. Whereas the GM rod end has the highest side stress placed exactly at the weakest point.
I agree it's a beefy setup. Just pointing out the weak link to be aware of if planned usage was going to be hard.

As far as that goes, BroncoMZ and maybe redfishtony (depending on what his use will be) may never run into that trouble with the use they're putting their Broncos to. Just like you may not either.
But it has to be brought up in any discussion about the use of the parts when comparing them to others.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Nov 3, 2003
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47,346
...My biuld is primarily for the street, but I want to plan accordingly so that should I decide to go off-road, my design will allow for the components necesary to do so.

There are several kits out there, but I prefer a thicker tube wall so I can tap the ends. The kits I looked at had a 1 ID so that the hex/round tube threaded adapter can be welded on the ends, which makes the wall thickness 1/8 for a 1-1/4 OD tubing.

This is my cost estimate:
$130 - complete 1-ton TRE set with jam nuts
$150 - Chromoly (4130) 1-1/4 dia x 1/4 wall tubing
$20 - (4) weld-on wrench hex
~$25 - pay local machine shop to drill (0.812) and tap (7/8-18) tube ends

Please let me know if my thinking is flawed in any way. Thank you.

Hey, if you have a machine shop that will charge only 25 bucks for tapping the tubes, I say go for it!
Normally I'd try to talk you into the type with the weld-in threaded ends because the tapping process is troublesome for most people. Either a hassle at home with normal tools (and expensive taps) or very expensive to have a machine shop do the work.

The other issue I've run into is with the tapped threads themselves. I don't remember what the actual engineering reasoning was, but many times the rod ends gall and get stuck the very first time they're installed. I don't think they were all stainless rod ends, but that it happened even with the standard type. But it's been awhile and maybe the guy's tapping process was flawed?
I could be wrong on that last bit and very likely your machinist is going to do the test-fitting to make sure all is well. But if you're doing any of the stuff at home I would absolutely recommend using a good amount of anti-seize even if you are only test-fitting the rod ends in the threads for the first time.

When it comes down to it though, I think your hunt for the thicker wall tubing so you can cut threads is sort of overkill as well. If it's easier and/or less expensive to buy a kit with weld-in bungs, that's the way I'd go even if the wall thickness is less.
After all, at 1.25" even a 1/8" wall tubing is pretty darn strong. Especially considering what you're planning for your Bronco's use. But isn't the Ruff Stuff kit that AZ linked to using 1/4" wall tubing? That's going to be killer strong for your use and the threaded inserts I believe are going to have super clean threads vs a typically tapped setup. Even if the ends are thinner to accept the inserts (I don't think that's the case though) the welded-in ends are very strong themselves and the tubing ends where all the welding is has not proven to be any weak link that I've ever heard of. The stuff is just strong.
Maybe I'm off base on the thread comments about tapped chrome-moly vs pre-threaded inserts, but I think the inserts are popular on HD kits for a reason.
Maybe the only reason is that welding an insert is easier for most home shops than tapping a big ass hole?
I'm sure you'll get for sure answers based on what we've been talking about. I'm curious what others say. I'm guessing a machinist probably has specialty taps that fit into a lathe that don't work anything like a regular hand tap, so maybe that's all the difference.

Something to consider anyway. Going back to your pricing, it's pretty good with the machining in there. Not sure what the same guy would charge for welding in the ends, but you might compare the two methods.

I've recommended the Ruff-Stuff kits for years, to those that wanted that type of system. Never heard of a complaint about the size and quality of the parts.
The price is right, but I just looked and it appears they're out of stock. Not sure how long they expect that to last, but if it's listed that way on a website, there could be some trouble with the acquisition of some of the parts.

And "The Cure" that AZ mentioned would be a good idea no matter what brand you go with. It does help with the rolling.
As they say though, it does not fit every brand of TRE out there, so it's up to you to either figure it out before ordering, or modify it a little bit to fit. A certain amount of customizing is needed in some applications. Others it just slips right over the stud and you're good to go.

Good luck!
Definitely come back when you're done and let us know how it all works out.
(edit: well, come back before then! Just be sure to keep us updated along the way is what I meant.;D)

Paul
 
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Tucknkitty

Newbie
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
48
Quick opinion - I've run the three way from WH and the 1-TON variants.

The longer draglink does add vagueness and places the trackbar/draglink out of phase as the suspension cycles. Those two lenghts need to be as close in length and as parrallel as possible. I would agree that for most its a non-issue but i did notice it and went back to the WH 3 way (i actually used the Gm1 Ton to try and save money). I've used the cure as well. The roll adds vagueness too. // I went deep on driveablity and steering - new shocks, coils, PS box, tires, and bushings all around.

I like the 1 Ton set ups - its just not perfect. The WH is as close as I can find that keeps the bend in the draglink and limits roll.

I noticed the vagueness and slight bumpsteer at speeds above 70 and on very bumpy roads.

My rig has 35" tires and 3" SL with 5 deg pos caster (rotated inner c's).

I am always in the pursuit of perfect with this thing...
 

jperry1290

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
908
I'm trying to decide on heims vs chevy 1 ton TRE. What was your reason for initially choosing the heims? Why do you want to change to TRE?
Thanks

Based on DOT regulations. Since heims are not DOT approved I am considering the liability or insurance process if something happens
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,346
Paul, you think the 3 way linkage WH sells needs the "Cure" bushings? Thanks, Ken

No.
Not only is their product designed to help with a geometry issue that is not present on the WH setup (or at least not as bad), but it likely would not fit anyway.
It says in their information that even among the different brands of GM tie rod ends it might not fit them all. It's designed specifically for the brand that they carry, and that's it.
If it happens to fit another brand, it's just a bonus. I do believe someone tried one for some reason, but don't remember if they were able to get it to fit, and whether or not it did anything.

I wonder if that's why Ruff Stuff is currently out of stock on their linkage? Maybe they could not get that particular brand of rod-end and did not want to muddy up the waters by starting to carry some other brand that their Cure did not fit. Not sure, but that could be one possibility.

The reason that tie-rod roll is less an issue with the 3-way setup like we sell is that the angle of the tie-rod where the draglink mounts to it is totally different. Where the GM tapered hole is parallel to the ground, the WH centerlink's tapered hole is supposed to be adjusted to mimic the factory 60° angle instead.
Are you running the stock setup currently? If so, look where the draglink meets the tie-rod and you'll see that if you put an imaginary line through the center of the lower draglink end, coming out of the Zerk fitting it would point up roughly at the radiator.
Do the same thing to the GM part and the line points straight ahead (parallel to the ground) and this is the issue.

All tie-rods are going to roll to a certain extent, and there's even a thread ongoing here now where one of ours is rolling more than it would normally. Right now I believe they are testing some scenarios to see if it can be reduced. For starters the steering stabilizer was binding up and at it's angle was likely causing at least some of the roll.

With the 90° from the ground orientation of the GM stuff (remember, the hole was for a steering stabilizer originally. Not a draglink) the steering box is literally "pulling upward" on the tie-rod whenever you turn left, and "pushing downward" when turning to the right.
Literally the only way to avoid the excess roll on a GM 1-ton setup would be to orient the draglink perfectly parallel to the tie-rod. It can be done, but most Bronco setups would not allow that with the generally available space.
Obviously, with this setup too, the benefit of this is only true at ride height (or whatever height the tierod and draglink are parallel) but doing so still helps at least at that point.
Just like any linkage common to the EB then, the optimum setting is not about being the same all the way through suspension travel and/or steering range. It's just about making it the best geometry you can while centered and at ride height, and then doing what you can to minimize the negative effects through the changes while driving.

This is in fact what the angle is designed to do on the factory setup by Ford. And what our setup allows you to mimic.
You can't stop the geometry changes completely when your starting point is a draglink at an angle and your suspension and steering move. But you can minimize the negatives (in this case, tie-rod roll) by mounting things at an angle such that the vertical pushing and pulling on the tie-rod are minimized.

The Cure is designed to reduce this roll by more firmly linking the draglink to the tie rod. So that even during steering box input the range it can roll is slightly more limited.

If we could have a good clear image of both setups side by side, it would be easier to see the difference and to better imagine the motions things go through during use.

Paul
 

bronkenn

Contributor
Bronco Guy
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Apr 27, 2017
Messages
2,662
Loc.
Southeast Ohio
Thanks Paul. Yes I have the WH three way linkage and I did point the drag link zerk toward the bottom of radiator as per a previous post by you and it all looks good. It will be a few months before I will be able to try it out. Thanks, Ken
 

BroncoMZ

Newbie
Joined
Jun 1, 2016
Messages
36
This is my cost estimate:
$130 - complete 1-ton TRE set with jam nuts
$150 - Chromoly (4130) 1-1/4 dia x 1/4 wall tubing
$20 - (4) weld-on wrench hex
~$25 - pay local machine shop to drill (0.812) and tap (7/8-18) tube ends

After a longer discussion with local machine shop, its $25 per threaded hole - so $100 in total, to correct the estimate in my initial post.

Decided to use the weld-on threaded hex tube adapters and 1-3/8 chromoly tubing - rather than threading tube ends and welding hex flats for wrench.

I'm trying to determine the cut length of the tie rod. With front wheels/knuckles aligned, what would be the ideal length of exposed thread on tie rod ends?

I imagine the length of exposed thread on drag link ends would be the same as tie rod.
 
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