Great pics and vids md, thanks!
Unfortunately there are lots of little things still wrong with the setup. Some are easy fixes, some are not. The way it's set up now really looks fantastic. But it's not the best setup for driving.
Let's see if we can touch on all of them. Some will be new comments, some repeats that bear mentioning.
But basically, because of some of the existing modifications, you can no longer just bolt something on and hope it fixes all the issues. You're now virtually at the "custom fabrication" end of things if you want it perfect.
However, there are still some bolt-ons that can help.
This was happening before I changed the tires and rims, the truck had the 2.5inch lift, but not the body lift. I had 15x7.5 rims with 31x8 wheels, and still had death wobble.
Do you mean 31x10.50 tires? Never heard of a 31x8, but doesn't mean they don't exist.
But if so, then that's too narrow of a tire for the wheel. An 8" wide tire should be on a 5 or 6 inch wide wheel at the most.
A 10.50 on the other hand, would be ok on a 6, 7, or 8 inch wide wheel. But not a 10" wide wheel.
I have since removed both, as a local bronco shop here ASC in Venice, advised that they be removed. since the truck has a 2.5 inch suspension lift.
Good folks at ASC. But it sounds like they're just going by the old rule that you don't "need" the drops for just a 2.5" lift. Doesn't mean you can't use them, or that they'll cause trouble. In fact they usually help, but at additional cost.
Anything you do to lower the angles is usually good. It just costs more money...
The tires have approximately 1000 miles on them, so not enough wear to know what is happening.
You can test the wear with just a few rotations actually. You're right that normal wear and tear won't start showing up yet. Even on a Bronco it might take 5,000 miles before you start to see the clues.
But you can see where the tire rides the road with just dirt/dust or chalk. We have a chalk test where you run a heavy line of chalk across the tire tread, then drive it a block or less to see what part of the tire still has chalk on it.
If it's rubbed off the center portion of the tire only, and still has chalk towards the edges, there's too much pressure.
If it wears out all the way to the edge, you can add air until you can see the edge of the chalk wear.
This is much easier done on the rear of course, as steering the front tires scrubs off chalk quickly.
The same basic test is done with dirt. Only you don't have to apply it, you simply check the tires after every drive to see where the dust has worn off. If there's a clean streak down the middle, let some air out. If the dust is worn off right up to the edge, but some air back in until you can see the transition points.
Passenger side ball joint (tie rod)
https://youtu.be/euY0Kl0k94g
That tie-rod end looks nice and tight. We'll talk about the rotation later...
Driver side ball joint (tie rod)
https://youtu.be/wGwdV_pztuc
Also nice and tight.
Upper Trac Bar mount and bushing
https://youtu.be/JhYuvP3THek
Good and tight for sure! Is that a welded washer there to clean up the hole? Good idea, and looks very effective in this case.
Lower track bar bolt and bushing
https://youtu.be/JFidCVXZHRw
Suck-ray-blue! As the others have already said, it's still broken.
Should not move at all, and is a source at least of road wander, where your vehicle wants to follow any and all ruts, grooves and cracks in the road. Or just basically wander all over the place.
It's awkward as heck to get a welding tip under there to fix the tack weld, but it's doable. Looks like their weld didn't take in this case.
Definitely remove the bar (again!) and check out the bolt where it sticks through the mount. Have it welded there if you can, but also add some more weld if you can, to the underside.
If you stick your head under there and look up (with safety glasses of course) at the bolt head while someone is turning the wheel, you should be able to see the weld broken somewhere. Hopefully they can fix it truly this time.
If there is already too much weld in there, then maybe there are some Plan-B's and Plan-C's out there that others can relate.
Maybe Local Boy has some pics of his when it was done? Or a description of just how much was needed, or if it had to be ground smooth for it to work.
Power steering box from the top
https://youtu.be/6vaL8WnX704
Looks pretty good from this viewpoint. Unfortunately not the other one...
Power steering bracket from below
https://youtu.be/HHAKh7E-ucU
Is it just my eyes and the angle of the camera, or is that bracket flexing in and out on the frame? Looks like it's flexing quite a lot from here.
If so that's not good and should be fixed somehow. Perhaps welding along the bottom edge to the frame? Is it welded elsewhere?
Close up of steering geometry
https://youtu.be/y5mZVxK1UGI
Yep. Pretty off unfortunately. With no simple fix yet, because of the same steering box setup.
That super thick spacer is actually pushing your box so far out to the driver's side that it's effecting steering geometry. Is that thing like 3/4" thick? Doesn't sound like enough to cause trouble, but it is (or at least looks it) if you don't compensate in other ways.
Intermediate steering shaft play (WCB said the tightened it up and it is good)
https://youtu.be/6Tj1nl7fhP0
Not it's not! Nothing on a steering column should have that much play in it. Especially side to side like that.
Not sure what it takes to fix it (what column is it?) but it's not helping you. Not causing the trouble all by itself of course, but not good and probably makes noise.
I am hoping to get time this week to take it to an alignment shop so I can get the specs, as that seems like it will help a ton.
Yes indeed it will! Information is power in this case.
If it is completely off, show dI have it aligned? What should I have it aligned to?
About the only thing they can do easily is toe-in. Since it's been said it looks off anyway, then it won't hurt to let them tackle it. The problem is your wheels though. With that much width, they can only get it close to spec. The rest of the "real world experimentation) will be up to you.
I'd let them set it to roughly 3/16" toe-in, or whatever degree angle their computer says to. It might check out already there, since you said it was aligned already I think.
But no matter what, as you get things dialed in I would experiment with a little change one way or the other.
You can adjust the tow-setting with the adjuster sleeve, then drive it to see how you like it. If it's better, great. If it's worse, put it back and try another way.
Here are the dimensions of my wheels:
Wheel Size: 15x10
Bolt Pattern: 5 on 5.5
Offset: -46
Backspace: 3.625
Well, that's not bad on paper. Just looking at the pics I would have said much different! They sure don't look like a normal backspacing, even though they don't stick out that far. They have a really deep dish to them, which says less backspacing.
And just look at the visual scrub radius. If you sit in front of it and imagine a straight line through the top and bottom king pin bearings, see where that imaginary line hits the pavement. From here it looks like it's practically inboard of the tire's sidewall!
In a perfect world it should be within a small amount of the center of the tire's contact patch (where the rubber meets the road) for pretty neutral steering. I didn't look at the chart to find out what the best setting is, but yours isn't near it from the look of the pics.
There is a bit of leeway in this measurement (and it used to be listed in the stats on new car reviews in the old days), but yours is a LOT more than just leeway.
Any chance the next time you have a wheel and tire off (for rotating maybe?
) you can measure from the back side of the mounting flange of the wheel to the inner edge of the rim bead? Just to make sure you got the right wheels in the right boxes.
The power steering box is what West Coast Broncos calls their, Rock Crawler Power Steering. I am not 100% sure it is 4x4x2
Looks like it though. Great setup.
But I question everybody's use of such big thick "adapter" plates that space the box so far outboard.
Usually causes interference between the lower u-joint and the leading edge of the wheel well. Also causes some misalignment issues with the draglink.
West Coast Broncos took the drop bracket and drop pitman off and kept them, since they swapped on a used upper tie rod. So I either have to buy a drop bracket or a riser.
I'd still stick with a drop. Less expensive and fewer things to mess with.
But as you said, it does kill two birds with one weld. Gets rid of the wobbly bolt, but is better suited to also raising the tie-rod up in a "TRO" setup (where the tie rod fits on top of the knuckle, instead of below it like normal).
I have not rotated my tires yet, as I had the same issue before I put this wheel and tire combination on the truck.
I'd still do it. After all, how many things have you done and checked already that are either not correct still, or didn't have any effect? What's one more, eh?
Worth a try, even if it's a bit of a hassle.
I also included a picture of the orientation of the steering wheel when the tires are straight, as it is slightly off, and not center. (sure thats not a factor).
It could be a huge factor as a matter of fact.
The steering boxes all have an "on-center" position that is a bit tighter mesh in the gears than the rest of the range. This tightness helps the feel of running straight down the road. I have no idea of the science behind it, but do know it's a fact of life that the box needs to be centered.
What you should have been sold originally is an adjustable draglink to correct this.
Sorry for one more thing in your pile of snowballs. But it's a necessity in many situations. Especially in yours where you either don't have the drops (which means your linkage is out of whack) or you do have them and the drop is still not enough to correct for the draglink's alignment.
The adjustment is the same as the tie-rod where you can lengthen the rod to put the box back on-center.
With all else that's going on in your rig, I say an adjustable draglink is a must-have.
On a side note, most aftermarket dropped pitman arms are not keyed. So they can be installed in any position that's reasonable. With an arm like that then, you can center the tires, center the box, then put the pitman arm on in a naturally neutral position at that point.
If it's no more than one or two splines off of pointing straight back, it's probably not an issue.
But the draglink is a better adjustment point. Won't run into limit problems or other stuff if the arm is more than 1 spline off.
But get that box back to center.
As for the trac bar bolt. I was wondering it it was moving as well, but count tell, I will mount my camera if I can above or below it to the truck, so I can see if it shimmy. I did have a broken tac weld on the bolt head, that WCB did fix. I looked and it does not seem broken again. Maybe for safety sake I should torque down the nut a touch more.
Yes, but the weld is what really does it. I've had broken welds and no amount of torquing of the nut would stop it from wobbling.
Even though the factory torque is literally 155 to 205 lbs!
Is yours that tight?
EDIT: Here is a video from above the trac bar, the camera is mounted to the axle, so it is stationary. looks like it does wiggle. So that would mean that my tac weld broke again?
Yep. 'Fraid so. Either that or it just didn't take originally.
You said it's covered in weld though, so at least they gave it a shot. But perhaps it did't penetrate far enough? It's an awkward spot to weld, but it can be done. Especially if you have a lift to work with.
Good call on the video.
it is covered in new weld, so I can not even really see the bolt. but WCB did re tac it. Maybe it isn't tight enough? Can I torque it down extremely tight? Or what would my option be?
That 200 lbs quoted above is really tight. I bet most don't ever get theirs back on that tight. So yes, if yours is just barely tight and relying on the cotter pin alone, it should help a little to get it tighter. But it won't get rid of it. Gotta re-weld I think.
Do the tie rods look normal to you?
Not sure what you mean? They look good, and look like normal EB rods.
They do rotate more than they should. This could be due in part to the steep angles of the bars, but could also be due in part to the new position of the box. Not sure about that, but it seems like it would.
Since I don't own a welder, it seems best to get a trac bar riser, since eI would either need that or a drop bracket, and I would only have to pay someone once to weld the riser on, and it fixes the loose trac bar bolt. Is there any big pros and cons to a riser vs a drop bracket?
Logical conclusion, but there are still negatives to a riser.
Plenty of members using them though, so if you have to, go for it. It would definitely fix the lower bolt. Could also give you some options of making the trackbar more parallel with the draglink. Remember that aspect? It's still important.
I will get an adjustable trac bar as well, and then get my alignment done. That seems like it will drastically help my situation.
Can't hurt. Don't think the trackbar itself will make a huge difference, but every little bit helps. Re-centering the axle with the adjustment and also angling the upper head/eye to better align with the trackbar bracket is a good thing.
Tightening it more will not resolve the movement issue... Moreover, you don't want to torque it down so tight that it hinders the track bar from rotating around that axis when the suspension cycles up and down... That is why it has a carter pin...to keep it from loosening up from vibration and such...Tight enough to ensure no forward and back movement...
All true, except for the cotter pin bit. Not always enough by itself to hold that big nut and bar in place. You don't rely on just the cotter pin on a trackbar or you risk losing the nut. The action of one of these things twisting will twist a tiny little cotter pin right off sometimes.
The factory torque is a minimum of 155 lbs. but up to 205 lbs. This should tell you something.
The original bushings and sleeves were a bit different from the poly replacements, but as long as you don't have to squeeze the bushing out to get there, the same torque should apply.
I can only speak for myself...But I welded the entire circumstance of that bolt...It's on there permanently...
Love to see how you did that. Did you have to grind down any, or did things fit right over the new weld?
An adjustable track bar is a good investment...
Definitely. Just like the adjustable draglink.
Hey...I just noticed that the pic (1st pic in post #17) you have with the drop bracket and drop pitman arm looks to be the correct geometry??? Why would they take that off???
Agreed. Even though it's not actually perfectly correct, it's much closer than any of the other combos I've seen in pics so far.
It'd be good to get it back to that point at least. The upper trackbar mount could come down another 1/2" or so and things would be perfect. The steering gearbox is probably just slightly lower than a stock one, giving this slight misalignment.
I don't think going TRO would do the trick either, as that would bring the lower end up too high and you' have to compensate somewhere else.
So is it advised to put a drop bracket on and a drop pitman, or simply just the drop bracket? I really want to get this right! I’ll put an adjustable trac bar in, and get it aligned properly and go from there.
As mentioned before, under normal conditions you always do both together. And they should be a matched set too, so that the angles are still parallel.
But in your case, since it's no longer "normal conditions" it's hard to tell exactly which combination of parts are going to give you what you need.
A different pitman arm? Different trackbar bracket? Different tie-rod position? All of the above?
You have to test fit and set up before finalizing a design. Measure twice, cut once.
Or as in the case with Broncos, measure thirty six times, cut five.%)
So drop brack solely, or drop pitman and drop bracket????
See above. Usually together for the best results
I believe they are 3.625. I remember making a post, I can try to find it, and this was the wheel that was suggested. I can’t afford to get all new rims at this point. How is something like this corrected without purchasing new wheels?
No other way. You can go the opposite way with spacers, but you need more of an inward move. More backspacing, or taller tires.
And speaking of nice videos... Got time for one more? I swear, it's the last time (today) that I'll ask for more videos or taking time to get photos!
Death Wobble time.
Can you set up a camera (either looking at the steering wheel or the steering linkage underneath, and reproduce the symptoms at will?
Since you say it happens at a bump, is it one particular one that sets things going? If so, then it might be easy to reproduce for the cameras. Speed and direction and hitting the bump just right will often set off a bad tire's gyrations.
This was another of the main reasons I have to think your DW is legit, and not just something loose. Gotta' be a tire.
Yeah, I know nothing is etched in stone, and with Broncos no two are alike. But in the case of a DW brought on by hitting a particular bump at a particular speed, it's too close to a classic tire problem to ignore.
It's very strange (almost unheard of in fact!) for two sets of tires to have the same issue. Especially when mounted on different wheels.
But it sure would be cool to see it!
Thanks
Paul