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Help diagnose my death wobble cause

langester

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MASTER OF MADNESS
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Mar 2, 2013
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2,660
After seeing the new video of the lower trac bar bolt and bushing, it is definitely moving. As was said above check it out and make sure it is not loose (broken weld or something along those lines).
 
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mduenas

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Los Angeles
Since I don't own a welder, it seems best to get a trac bar riser, since eI would either need that or a drop bracket, and I would only have to pay someone once to weld the riser on, and it fixes the loose trac bar bolt. Is there any big pros and cons to a riser vs a drop bracket?

I will get an adjustable trac bar as well, and then get my alignment done. That seems like it will drastically help my situation.
 

Local Boy

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Mililani, Hawaii
Tightening it more will not resolve the movement issue... Moreover, you don't want to torque it down so tight that it hinders the track bar from rotating around that axis when the suspension cycles up and down... That is why it has a carter pin...to keep it from loosening up from vibration and such...Tight enough to ensure no forward and back movement...

Looks like that hole, the lower track bar bolt passes through, has enlarged...allowing the bolt to move within the hole.... Just like how the top track bar mount hole would enlarge in the same way...

I can only speak for myself...But I welded the entire circumstance of that bolt...It's on there permanently...

Just for reference I have 5.5 inch lift, so my situation is a little different from yours... so installing a riser was the best approach for me...

As for your situation (riser vs. drop), I would respectfully defer to Paul (DirtDonk) he knows this stuff way better then me.... see #4 in Paul's post #16

Aloha
 
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mduenas

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Tightening it more will not resolve the movement issue... Moreover, you don't want to torque it down so tight that it hinders the track bar from rotating around that axis when the suspension cycles up and down... That is why it has a carter pin...to keep it from loosening up from vibration and such...Tight enough to ensure no forward and back movement...

Looks like that hole, the lower track bar bolt passes through, has enlarged...allowing the bolt to move within the hole.... Just like how the top track bar mount hole would enlarge in the same way...

I can only speak for myself...But I welded the entire circumstance of that bolt...It's on there permanently...

Just for reference I have 5.5 inch lift, so my situation is a little different from yours... so installing a riser was the best approach for me...

As for your situation (riser vs. drop), I would respectfully defer to Paul (DirtDonk) he knows this stuff way better then me.... see #4 in Paul's post #16

Aloha

Ok I must have misinterpreted it as since I already had the drop bracket I would use that. But unfortunately I have neither and need to buy one. So I guess I need to figure out what is the better option. From the looks of it, the trac bar riser has more alignment options (higher or lower) than the drop bracket correct? This seems to give me more the options to fine tune it.
 
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Local Boy

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Although you are correct..the riser does have different holes to utilize depending on your lift and set-up... Paul's point, in his post, should weigh heavily on your decision. Particularly, considering the amount of time and effort he put into his post. I swear, this guy has more patience than the Pope! :eek: BIG props to DirtDonk! ;D

As Paul noted, you should strive to keep both bars on the same plane. Hence, his recommendation for the drop bracket...

The loose bolt (lower track bar) can be resolved by just welding the entire bolt (no tack welds) to the mount... would not add much cost to simply weld it on permanently, when doing the drop bracket...

An adjustable track bar is a good investment...

Hey...I just noticed that the pic (1st pic in post #17) you have with the drop bracket and drop pitman arm looks to be the correct geometry??? Why would they take that off???

Good Luck...

Aloha
 
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B RON CO

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Hi, X3. Rotate the tires. Get the Trac bar drop welded in place. You can bolt it on and have the shop weld and repair both ends.
Get the alignment numbers. Only toe is easy to adjust, so if it not @ 1/8 toe in let them set that.
You would like to be in degrees, caster @4. Camber @0, toe @ 1.5, or toe @1/8".
If the caster is low you need to think about the c bushings (big job). If the camber is off it could be worn king pins or a bent axle (big job). Many guys adjust the toe on the driveway, so Google how to do that.
Post the alignment numbers after the track bar I'd fixed. Good luck
 
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mduenas

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Although you are correct..the riser does have different holes to utilize depending on your lift and set-up... Paul's point, in his post, should weigh heavily on your decision. Particularly, considering the amount of time and effort he put into his post. I swear, this guy has more patience than the Pope! :eek: BIG props to DirtDonk! ;D

As Paul noted, you should strive to keep both bars on the same plane. Hence, his recommendation for the drop bracket...

The loose bolt (lower track bar) can be resolved by just welding the entire bolt (no tack welds) to the mount... would not add much cost to simply weld it on permanently, when doing the drop bracket...

An adjustable track bar is a good investment...

Hey...I just noticed that the pic (1st pic in post #17) you have with the drop bracket and drop pitman arm looks to be the correct geometry??? Why would they take that off???

Good Luck...

Aloha

I agree DirtDonk knows his sh*t!

As for the drop bracket and pitman arm that was in there, WCB removed it as we were trying to figure out what caused the DW.

So is it advised to put a drop bracket on and a drop pitman, or simply just the drop bracket? I really want to get this right! I’ll put an adjustable trac bar in, and get it aligned properly and go from there.

So drop brack soley, or drop pitman and drop bracket????
 

EricLar80

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 14, 2001
Messages
2,170
Do you know, or can you check, the backspacing on your wheels? I have guess that some of these issues can be tracked back to the wheel width/backspacing in combination with the tire diameter.

Check out the chart below - basically, if you have 10" wheels and 32" tires, then you should have 4.75" backspacing to keep your scrub radius similar to stock.

Eric

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281002

aSysHUPnT62kgw9bCXFIs0hEBdYXKWFHAXXgGvr2_pYTtxwqAW9Wxb44tPYz3LognQ5sBtwI3seLH55SE1g_0Z-mR7XlCNMtn5xO-po0MpP3nE-mHKtCYbmmhtOeak6YZK_ZNe39C70ILYeqFKzZu_9dZTtVkQ8PtzZ1qRS4Ncw-tDiqJkgwteu23VWTRPKGw8rFl1WfCLg2lXSzwps67npmUAGVxdxpqtyaLIrxxm3fWYPfUrn865c9cPUhpAU0rHwawEofWctIX3lM2we6Gs93VWhWeRRIUtnMZzRvsq9mWT3dE0nW_PC2VAZl5rgh_SA4iJ1yVTCUwod5saKzb0C63zsayFngveWBCJPrW4CfZoSrtRr4lAiVxNEFC-lJl4rpOyQbUCl528KavjufI9d4M0B0KrUAMJXOKsC2yJM6PbP140Dm28HDvkuC8iFAMxEHUW0-0ZKrXuo7gGns0EdEdOJvDC7XLbnsvONNQknZW_5v3YvYOC4atrhTWMlQ6opizvtIsW2XQ3ko-14jDRHEdpNjXrPO_BBiU3eXZW2KjK8v3dmt6osuoL7dxg=s903-w903-h581-no
 
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mduenas

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Dec 29, 2015
Messages
511
Loc.
Los Angeles
Do you know, or can you check, the backspacing on your wheels? I have guess that some of these issues can be tracked back to the wheel width/backspacing in combination with the tire diameter.

Check out the chart below - basically, if you have 10" wheels and 32" tires, then you should have 4.75" backspacing to keep your scrub radius similar to stock.

Eric

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281002

aSysHUPnT62kgw9bCXFIs0hEBdYXKWFHAXXgGvr2_pYTtxwqAW9Wxb44tPYz3LognQ5sBtwI3seLH55SE1g_0Z-mR7XlCNMtn5xO-po0MpP3nE-mHKtCYbmmhtOeak6YZK_ZNe39C70ILYeqFKzZu_9dZTtVkQ8PtzZ1qRS4Ncw-tDiqJkgwteu23VWTRPKGw8rFl1WfCLg2lXSzwps67npmUAGVxdxpqtyaLIrxxm3fWYPfUrn865c9cPUhpAU0rHwawEofWctIX3lM2we6Gs93VWhWeRRIUtnMZzRvsq9mWT3dE0nW_PC2VAZl5rgh_SA4iJ1yVTCUwod5saKzb0C63zsayFngveWBCJPrW4CfZoSrtRr4lAiVxNEFC-lJl4rpOyQbUCl528KavjufI9d4M0B0KrUAMJXOKsC2yJM6PbP140Dm28HDvkuC8iFAMxEHUW0-0ZKrXuo7gGns0EdEdOJvDC7XLbnsvONNQknZW_5v3YvYOC4atrhTWMlQ6opizvtIsW2XQ3ko-14jDRHEdpNjXrPO_BBiU3eXZW2KjK8v3dmt6osuoL7dxg=s903-w903-h581-no

I believe they are 3.625. I remember making a post, I can try to find it, and this was the wheel that was suggested. I can’t afford to get all new rims at this point. How is something like this corrected without purchasing new wheels?
 

DirtDonk

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Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,345
Great pics and vids md, thanks!
Unfortunately there are lots of little things still wrong with the setup. Some are easy fixes, some are not. The way it's set up now really looks fantastic. But it's not the best setup for driving.
Let's see if we can touch on all of them. Some will be new comments, some repeats that bear mentioning.

But basically, because of some of the existing modifications, you can no longer just bolt something on and hope it fixes all the issues. You're now virtually at the "custom fabrication" end of things if you want it perfect.
However, there are still some bolt-ons that can help.

This was happening before I changed the tires and rims, the truck had the 2.5inch lift, but not the body lift. I had 15x7.5 rims with 31x8 wheels, and still had death wobble.

Do you mean 31x10.50 tires? Never heard of a 31x8, but doesn't mean they don't exist.
But if so, then that's too narrow of a tire for the wheel. An 8" wide tire should be on a 5 or 6 inch wide wheel at the most.
A 10.50 on the other hand, would be ok on a 6, 7, or 8 inch wide wheel. But not a 10" wide wheel.

I have since removed both, as a local bronco shop here ASC in Venice, advised that they be removed. since the truck has a 2.5 inch suspension lift.

Good folks at ASC. But it sounds like they're just going by the old rule that you don't "need" the drops for just a 2.5" lift. Doesn't mean you can't use them, or that they'll cause trouble. In fact they usually help, but at additional cost.
Anything you do to lower the angles is usually good. It just costs more money...

The tires have approximately 1000 miles on them, so not enough wear to know what is happening.

You can test the wear with just a few rotations actually. You're right that normal wear and tear won't start showing up yet. Even on a Bronco it might take 5,000 miles before you start to see the clues.
But you can see where the tire rides the road with just dirt/dust or chalk. We have a chalk test where you run a heavy line of chalk across the tire tread, then drive it a block or less to see what part of the tire still has chalk on it.
If it's rubbed off the center portion of the tire only, and still has chalk towards the edges, there's too much pressure.
If it wears out all the way to the edge, you can add air until you can see the edge of the chalk wear.
This is much easier done on the rear of course, as steering the front tires scrubs off chalk quickly.

The same basic test is done with dirt. Only you don't have to apply it, you simply check the tires after every drive to see where the dust has worn off. If there's a clean streak down the middle, let some air out. If the dust is worn off right up to the edge, but some air back in until you can see the transition points.

Passenger side ball joint (tie rod)
https://youtu.be/euY0Kl0k94g

That tie-rod end looks nice and tight. We'll talk about the rotation later...

Driver side ball joint (tie rod)
https://youtu.be/wGwdV_pztuc

Also nice and tight.

Upper Trac Bar mount and bushing
https://youtu.be/JhYuvP3THek

Good and tight for sure! Is that a welded washer there to clean up the hole? Good idea, and looks very effective in this case.

Lower track bar bolt and bushing
https://youtu.be/JFidCVXZHRw

Suck-ray-blue! As the others have already said, it's still broken.
Should not move at all, and is a source at least of road wander, where your vehicle wants to follow any and all ruts, grooves and cracks in the road. Or just basically wander all over the place.
It's awkward as heck to get a welding tip under there to fix the tack weld, but it's doable. Looks like their weld didn't take in this case.
Definitely remove the bar (again!) and check out the bolt where it sticks through the mount. Have it welded there if you can, but also add some more weld if you can, to the underside.
If you stick your head under there and look up (with safety glasses of course) at the bolt head while someone is turning the wheel, you should be able to see the weld broken somewhere. Hopefully they can fix it truly this time.
If there is already too much weld in there, then maybe there are some Plan-B's and Plan-C's out there that others can relate.
Maybe Local Boy has some pics of his when it was done? Or a description of just how much was needed, or if it had to be ground smooth for it to work.

Power steering box from the top
https://youtu.be/6vaL8WnX704

Looks pretty good from this viewpoint. Unfortunately not the other one...

Power steering bracket from below
https://youtu.be/HHAKh7E-ucU

Is it just my eyes and the angle of the camera, or is that bracket flexing in and out on the frame? Looks like it's flexing quite a lot from here.
If so that's not good and should be fixed somehow. Perhaps welding along the bottom edge to the frame? Is it welded elsewhere?

Close up of steering geometry
https://youtu.be/y5mZVxK1UGI

Yep. Pretty off unfortunately. With no simple fix yet, because of the same steering box setup.
That super thick spacer is actually pushing your box so far out to the driver's side that it's effecting steering geometry. Is that thing like 3/4" thick? Doesn't sound like enough to cause trouble, but it is (or at least looks it) if you don't compensate in other ways.

Intermediate steering shaft play (WCB said the tightened it up and it is good)
https://youtu.be/6Tj1nl7fhP0

Not it's not! Nothing on a steering column should have that much play in it. Especially side to side like that.
Not sure what it takes to fix it (what column is it?) but it's not helping you. Not causing the trouble all by itself of course, but not good and probably makes noise.

I am hoping to get time this week to take it to an alignment shop so I can get the specs, as that seems like it will help a ton.

Yes indeed it will! Information is power in this case.

If it is completely off, show dI have it aligned? What should I have it aligned to?

About the only thing they can do easily is toe-in. Since it's been said it looks off anyway, then it won't hurt to let them tackle it. The problem is your wheels though. With that much width, they can only get it close to spec. The rest of the "real world experimentation) will be up to you.
I'd let them set it to roughly 3/16" toe-in, or whatever degree angle their computer says to. It might check out already there, since you said it was aligned already I think.
But no matter what, as you get things dialed in I would experiment with a little change one way or the other.
You can adjust the tow-setting with the adjuster sleeve, then drive it to see how you like it. If it's better, great. If it's worse, put it back and try another way.

Here are the dimensions of my wheels:
Wheel Size: 15x10
Bolt Pattern: 5 on 5.5
Offset: -46
Backspace: 3.625

Well, that's not bad on paper. Just looking at the pics I would have said much different! They sure don't look like a normal backspacing, even though they don't stick out that far. They have a really deep dish to them, which says less backspacing.
And just look at the visual scrub radius. If you sit in front of it and imagine a straight line through the top and bottom king pin bearings, see where that imaginary line hits the pavement. From here it looks like it's practically inboard of the tire's sidewall!
In a perfect world it should be within a small amount of the center of the tire's contact patch (where the rubber meets the road) for pretty neutral steering. I didn't look at the chart to find out what the best setting is, but yours isn't near it from the look of the pics.
There is a bit of leeway in this measurement (and it used to be listed in the stats on new car reviews in the old days), but yours is a LOT more than just leeway.

Any chance the next time you have a wheel and tire off (for rotating maybe?;)) you can measure from the back side of the mounting flange of the wheel to the inner edge of the rim bead? Just to make sure you got the right wheels in the right boxes.

The power steering box is what West Coast Broncos calls their, Rock Crawler Power Steering. I am not 100% sure it is 4x4x2

Looks like it though. Great setup.
But I question everybody's use of such big thick "adapter" plates that space the box so far outboard.
Usually causes interference between the lower u-joint and the leading edge of the wheel well. Also causes some misalignment issues with the draglink.

West Coast Broncos took the drop bracket and drop pitman off and kept them, since they swapped on a used upper tie rod. So I either have to buy a drop bracket or a riser.

I'd still stick with a drop. Less expensive and fewer things to mess with.
But as you said, it does kill two birds with one weld. Gets rid of the wobbly bolt, but is better suited to also raising the tie-rod up in a "TRO" setup (where the tie rod fits on top of the knuckle, instead of below it like normal).

I have not rotated my tires yet, as I had the same issue before I put this wheel and tire combination on the truck.

I'd still do it. After all, how many things have you done and checked already that are either not correct still, or didn't have any effect? What's one more, eh?
Worth a try, even if it's a bit of a hassle.

I also included a picture of the orientation of the steering wheel when the tires are straight, as it is slightly off, and not center. (sure thats not a factor).

It could be a huge factor as a matter of fact.
The steering boxes all have an "on-center" position that is a bit tighter mesh in the gears than the rest of the range. This tightness helps the feel of running straight down the road. I have no idea of the science behind it, but do know it's a fact of life that the box needs to be centered.
What you should have been sold originally is an adjustable draglink to correct this.
Sorry for one more thing in your pile of snowballs. But it's a necessity in many situations. Especially in yours where you either don't have the drops (which means your linkage is out of whack) or you do have them and the drop is still not enough to correct for the draglink's alignment.
The adjustment is the same as the tie-rod where you can lengthen the rod to put the box back on-center.
With all else that's going on in your rig, I say an adjustable draglink is a must-have.

On a side note, most aftermarket dropped pitman arms are not keyed. So they can be installed in any position that's reasonable. With an arm like that then, you can center the tires, center the box, then put the pitman arm on in a naturally neutral position at that point.
If it's no more than one or two splines off of pointing straight back, it's probably not an issue.
But the draglink is a better adjustment point. Won't run into limit problems or other stuff if the arm is more than 1 spline off.
But get that box back to center.

As for the trac bar bolt. I was wondering it it was moving as well, but count tell, I will mount my camera if I can above or below it to the truck, so I can see if it shimmy. I did have a broken tac weld on the bolt head, that WCB did fix. I looked and it does not seem broken again. Maybe for safety sake I should torque down the nut a touch more.

Yes, but the weld is what really does it. I've had broken welds and no amount of torquing of the nut would stop it from wobbling.
Even though the factory torque is literally 155 to 205 lbs!
Is yours that tight?

EDIT: Here is a video from above the trac bar, the camera is mounted to the axle, so it is stationary. looks like it does wiggle. So that would mean that my tac weld broke again?


Yep. 'Fraid so. Either that or it just didn't take originally.
You said it's covered in weld though, so at least they gave it a shot. But perhaps it did't penetrate far enough? It's an awkward spot to weld, but it can be done. Especially if you have a lift to work with.
Good call on the video.

it is covered in new weld, so I can not even really see the bolt. but WCB did re tac it. Maybe it isn't tight enough? Can I torque it down extremely tight? Or what would my option be?

That 200 lbs quoted above is really tight. I bet most don't ever get theirs back on that tight. So yes, if yours is just barely tight and relying on the cotter pin alone, it should help a little to get it tighter. But it won't get rid of it. Gotta re-weld I think.

Do the tie rods look normal to you?

Not sure what you mean? They look good, and look like normal EB rods.
They do rotate more than they should. This could be due in part to the steep angles of the bars, but could also be due in part to the new position of the box. Not sure about that, but it seems like it would.

Since I don't own a welder, it seems best to get a trac bar riser, since eI would either need that or a drop bracket, and I would only have to pay someone once to weld the riser on, and it fixes the loose trac bar bolt. Is there any big pros and cons to a riser vs a drop bracket?

Logical conclusion, but there are still negatives to a riser.
Plenty of members using them though, so if you have to, go for it. It would definitely fix the lower bolt. Could also give you some options of making the trackbar more parallel with the draglink. Remember that aspect? It's still important.

I will get an adjustable trac bar as well, and then get my alignment done. That seems like it will drastically help my situation.

Can't hurt. Don't think the trackbar itself will make a huge difference, but every little bit helps. Re-centering the axle with the adjustment and also angling the upper head/eye to better align with the trackbar bracket is a good thing.

Tightening it more will not resolve the movement issue... Moreover, you don't want to torque it down so tight that it hinders the track bar from rotating around that axis when the suspension cycles up and down... That is why it has a carter pin...to keep it from loosening up from vibration and such...Tight enough to ensure no forward and back movement...

All true, except for the cotter pin bit. Not always enough by itself to hold that big nut and bar in place. You don't rely on just the cotter pin on a trackbar or you risk losing the nut. The action of one of these things twisting will twist a tiny little cotter pin right off sometimes.
The factory torque is a minimum of 155 lbs. but up to 205 lbs. This should tell you something.
The original bushings and sleeves were a bit different from the poly replacements, but as long as you don't have to squeeze the bushing out to get there, the same torque should apply.

I can only speak for myself...But I welded the entire circumstance of that bolt...It's on there permanently...

Love to see how you did that. Did you have to grind down any, or did things fit right over the new weld?

An adjustable track bar is a good investment...

Definitely. Just like the adjustable draglink.

Hey...I just noticed that the pic (1st pic in post #17) you have with the drop bracket and drop pitman arm looks to be the correct geometry??? Why would they take that off???

Agreed. Even though it's not actually perfectly correct, it's much closer than any of the other combos I've seen in pics so far.
It'd be good to get it back to that point at least. The upper trackbar mount could come down another 1/2" or so and things would be perfect. The steering gearbox is probably just slightly lower than a stock one, giving this slight misalignment.
I don't think going TRO would do the trick either, as that would bring the lower end up too high and you' have to compensate somewhere else.

So is it advised to put a drop bracket on and a drop pitman, or simply just the drop bracket? I really want to get this right! I’ll put an adjustable trac bar in, and get it aligned properly and go from there.

As mentioned before, under normal conditions you always do both together. And they should be a matched set too, so that the angles are still parallel.
But in your case, since it's no longer "normal conditions" it's hard to tell exactly which combination of parts are going to give you what you need.
A different pitman arm? Different trackbar bracket? Different tie-rod position? All of the above?
You have to test fit and set up before finalizing a design. Measure twice, cut once.
Or as in the case with Broncos, measure thirty six times, cut five.%)

So drop brack solely, or drop pitman and drop bracket????

See above. Usually together for the best results

I believe they are 3.625. I remember making a post, I can try to find it, and this was the wheel that was suggested. I can’t afford to get all new rims at this point. How is something like this corrected without purchasing new wheels?

No other way. You can go the opposite way with spacers, but you need more of an inward move. More backspacing, or taller tires.

And speaking of nice videos... Got time for one more? I swear, it's the last time (today) that I'll ask for more videos or taking time to get photos!
Death Wobble time.
Can you set up a camera (either looking at the steering wheel or the steering linkage underneath, and reproduce the symptoms at will?

Since you say it happens at a bump, is it one particular one that sets things going? If so, then it might be easy to reproduce for the cameras. Speed and direction and hitting the bump just right will often set off a bad tire's gyrations.
This was another of the main reasons I have to think your DW is legit, and not just something loose. Gotta' be a tire.

Yeah, I know nothing is etched in stone, and with Broncos no two are alike. But in the case of a DW brought on by hitting a particular bump at a particular speed, it's too close to a classic tire problem to ignore.
It's very strange (almost unheard of in fact!) for two sets of tires to have the same issue. Especially when mounted on different wheels.
But it sure would be cool to see it!

Thanks

Paul
 
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mduenas

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Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
511
Loc.
Los Angeles
Thank you so much again, of so much info, this is beyond helpful!

But basically, because of some of the existing modifications, you can no longer just bolt something on and hope it fixes all the issues. You're now virtually at the "custom fabrication" end of things if you want it perfect.However, there are still some bolt-ons that can help.

When you say custom fabrication, are we talking cutting the trac bar drop bracket to my geometry better? is that an option, so it sits at the right height?

Do you mean 31x10.50 tires? Never heard of a 31x8, but doesn't mean they don't exist.
But if so, then that's too narrow of a tire for the wheel. An 8" wide tire should be on a 5 or 6 inch wide wheel at the most.
A 10.50 on the other hand, would be ok on a 6, 7, or 8 inch wide wheel. But not a 10" wide wheel.

It has been over a year since I had those tires, so I could be off. But I absolutely still had the issue. I do know they were a 15inch rim and a 31inch tire, width, I can't recall, they didn't ballon out much past the rim width, that I do remember.



Good folks at ASC. But it sounds like they're just going by the old rule that you don't "need" the drops for just a 2.5" lift. Doesn't mean you can't use them, or that they'll cause trouble. In fact they usually help, but at additional cost.
Anything you do to lower the angles is usually good. It just costs more money...

I agree, now looking back at the drop pitman and the drop bracket I can see the geometry is much better. I am thinking I need to do both again, to get the proper alignment, of my trac bar and drop bracket, but I will purchase both and try just the drop bracket first to see where it gets me, Like I asked before, can that be adjusted?

The same basic test is done with dirt. Only you don't have to apply it, you simply check the tires after every drive to see where the dust has worn off. If there's a clean streak down the middle, let some air out. If the dust is worn off right up to the edge, but some air back in until you can see the transition points.

This seems like something I should do one I fix my steering geometry and broken welds.

Good and tight for sure! Is that a welded washer there to clean up the hole? Good idea, and looks very effective in this case.

Yes it is, the hole was egged out, from what I am assuming was years of neglect of the broken lower trac bar bolt from the PO.


Suck-ray-blue! As the others have already said, it's still broken. Should not move at all, and is a source at least of road wander, where your vehicle wants to follow any and all ruts, grooves and cracks in the road. Or just basically wander all over the place.

I figured this was the case and will fix it again, hopefully this time it will hold.

Is it just my eyes and the angle of the camera, or is that bracket flexing in and out on the frame? Looks like it's flexing quite a lot from here.
If so that's not good and should be fixed somehow. Perhaps welding along the bottom edge to the frame? Is it welded elsewhere?

I zoomed in on the video and I do not see any flex. The base of the plate seems to stay the same distance from the frame, but I will look again!


Not it's not! Nothing on a steering column should have that much play in it. Especially side to side like that.
Not sure what it takes to fix it (what column is it?) but it's not helping you. Not causing the trouble all by itself of course, but not good and probably makes noise.

I brought this up to them West Coast Broncos as concern, when I first got my truck back, they assured me it was fine. I sent my truck back to them since it had other issues that needed to be ironed out (they are 125 miles from me, so it is a trek) They had my truck for another month and told me the tightened it up as best they could and that it is good. That some shafts have some wobble. (I am assuming they didnt want to take the time to pull it apart and fix it properly then? Unfortunately I do not know the brand of who makes it. When I asked where it was from I got the response, we order them from a warehouse and don't know where they come from (or something very similar to that).

Since I have no idea how to fix that issue and West Coast Broncos won't fix it, (even though I purchased it from them and had them install it) I am out of luck and do not know what to do. They had my truck for over a year, and I sent it back to them to fix issues and obviously I still have them. If anyone has any knowledge on what could possibly be wrong with the steering shaft that would be greatly appreciated, or how to deal with West Coast Broncos to get them to fix it.


About the only thing they can do easily is toe-in. Since it's been said it looks off anyway, then it won't hurt to let them tackle it. The problem is your wheels though. With that much width, they can only get it close to spec. The rest of the "real world experimentation) will be up to you.
I'd let them set it to roughly 3/16" toe-in,...

After I get the new parts on and trac bar drop bracket on, I will get this checked out. Unless West Coast Broncos aligned the truck, it hasn't been aligned since eI did all this work to it, and I am doubting that they did align it at this point.

Any chance the next time you have a wheel and tire off (for rotating maybe?;)) you can measure from the back side of the mounting flange of the wheel to the inner edge of the rim bead? Just to make sure you got the right wheels in the right boxes.

Unfortunately for me now, I know that is the backspacing, as I found what ones I actually ordered. This is the post I made about what to get, and it seem Is was ill informed: http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279325

I am at no point financially able to buy a new set up, as I spent so much money and time on the truck at this point, I had even asked West Coast Broncos if this wheel set up was ok, one of the employees told me it was. So I ordered it, after I sent my truck back because it still had DW, they told me the combo with a dana 30 axle is bad and I should step up to the dana 44.

So it seems that I am stuck with my situation for the forsake future and will just have to fight the wobble?


Looks like it though. Great setup.
But I question everybody's use of such big thick "adapter" plates that space the box so far outboard.
Usually causes interference between the lower u-joint and the leading edge of the wheel well. Also causes some misalignment issues with the draglink.

Definitely going to get an adjustable draglink, seems like this will help more than one issue. and going to get a drop bracket. Like I asked before, just to be sure it is seen, with all my questions ha! Can I adjust the actual "drop" of the drop bracket, making it less if needed?

Yes, but the weld is what really does it. I've had broken welds and no amount of torquing of the nut would stop it from wobbling.
Even though the factory torque is literally 155 to 205 lbs!
Is yours that tight?

I am not sure, I am going to check and see, I am doubting it is that tight, seeing as many of the things on my truck are not correct, as I am finding after getting it back from WCB.


As mentioned before, under normal conditions you always do both together. And they should be a matched set too, so that the angles are still parallel.
But in your case, since it's no longer "normal conditions" it's hard to tell exactly which combination of parts are going to give you what you need.
A different pitman arm? Different trackbar bracket? Different tie-rod position? All of the above?
You have to test fit and set up before finalizing a design. Measure twice, cut once.
Or as in the case with Broncos, measure thirty six times, cut five.%)

Ok, so in conclusion, I need to purchase a drop bracket, a drop pitman, an adjustable drag link, and adjustable trac bar. Fit the Pitman and Drop bracket, and make adjustments to the drop bracket if necessary Fix the lower trac bar bolt weld .Am I on the right path? As I can not afford to buy new wheels at this point. Then get the truck aligned.


And speaking of nice videos... Got time for one more? I swear, it's the last time (today) that I'll ask for more videos or taking time to get photos!
Death Wobble time.
Can you set up a camera (either looking at the steering wheel or the steering linkage underneath, and reproduce the symptoms at will?

Not sure that one is possible, I don't have a camera to mount on the outside, and it seems the wobble happens at random, a certain speed, at a certain bump. The sometimes it is constant at each pothole.

Paul,

Thank you so so so much for your help
 

EricLar80

Bronco Guru
Joined
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Messages
2,170
I believe they are 3.625. I remember making a post, I can try to find it, and this was the wheel that was suggested. I can’t afford to get all new rims at this point. How is something like this corrected without purchasing new wheels?

I’m not saying it’s the issue for sure, it’s just a guess since death wobble commonly occurs even when there does not appear to be anything wrong and it leaves guys scratching their head.

There is no way to change, other than to change wheels. Maybe you can find someone with the same tire size but with a narrower wheel to try out. When you narrow the wheel, it changes the pivot point in relation to wheel center when backspacing is kept constant. You only have to test the fronts, and if it doesn’t work then you have not spent any money.
 

DirtDonk

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When you say custom fabrication, are we talking cutting the trac bar drop bracket to my geometry better? is that an option, so it sits at the right height?

Yes, that's what I meant. That particular part is only one of several to match, but it's a key part.
There are the units that the Bronco vendors sell, but there are also custom kits where you build your own, or better yet one of the custom fabricated ones available from some sources. I never remember the names of the companies, but someone here will know of at least a couple of sources for custom trackbar brackets.
Member MIG's here builds some trick stuff for sale too. He's got shackles and lower front spring retainers, but not sure about trackbar brackets. Check out some of his stuff when you get the chance.

Re-installing a dropped arm and a dropped bracket together will definitely bring your angles back to a better setting. They won't make them more parallel though, unless you get a set where the drop bracket is longer than the drop of the pitman arm. It's not much, but it's better to have them exactly parallel.

I meant too, that there are other things you might have to do, but when it comes down to it, the trackbar drop is the key.

I agree, now looking back at the drop pitman and the drop bracket I can see the geometry is much better. I am thinking I need to do both again, to get the proper alignment, of my trac bar and drop bracket, but I will purchase both and try just the drop bracket first to see where it gets me, Like I asked before, can that be adjusted?

Most are not literally adjustable, but some have extra meat where you can drill another hole that gives you better alignment. Take that into account when looking for one. The one you had before did not have much extra material that I noticed in the pics. Ours is similar and does not have much below the existing hole. There is enough to get it close, and if you add some additional material you could keep the strength. But check around.

I zoomed in on the video and I do not see any flex. The base of the plate seems to stay the same distance from the frame, but I will look again!

Ok, good. I wasn't sure, but thought I was seeing some flex.
Flex in that area is not the end of the world, but it's not good. The adapter/bracket itself is obviously super stout itself. You're never going to flex that piece. But if it's mounting method on the frame is insufficient, you could induce some flex between the two parts. The steering systems are very strong and can impart massive torque!

They had my truck for another month and told me the tightened it up as best they could and that it is good. That some shafts have some wobble.

Well, I would tend to disagree with the amount of wobble in that pic. It's possible that they fixed something and it came loose again, but that's a crap-ton of play that should not be there in my opinion.
I'm no steering column guru though, so don't know the specifics.

Unfortunately I do not know the brand of who makes it. When I asked where it was from I got the response, we order them from a warehouse and don't know where they come from (or something very similar to that).

Luckily, there are only two common companies that man of us deal with. Maybe you can get some more pics for us and someone here can figure it out.
In addition to that, you can take some detailed pics (include the mounting point under the dash if you can) and send them to Flaming River and Borgeson (edit: sorry, meant to say Ididit) companies to see if they recognize it.
And for good measure, contact the Summit Racing tech department to see if they recognize it as one of theirs. They don't make their own, but have one of the other two make their private labeled stuff for them.
At least, FR and Borgeson are the most likely suppliers. It's very possible that other manufacturers are in the business but less well known.
With luck though, someone here will know first.

Looks like the lower bearing is busted up from side force, or it's just worn out from age.
Should be an inexpensive part and easy (relatively) to replace.
Probably a GM part if it's a universal column.

Unfortunately for me now, I know that is the backspacing, as I found what ones I actually ordered. This is the post I made about what to get, and it seem Is was ill informed: http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279325

Well, I see it says 3.625 (3 5/8) which by all accounts should be fine. That's why I was interested in an actual measurement. Simply because, in the pics of your truck, they look like they should be tucked in more around the drum.
Maybe they're fine.
Less wheel, and more backspacing, up to a point can be "better" when it comes to street handling. But it's all about the dance. Adjust one thing, change three.
But let's leave it for now and see where you go.

So it seems that I am stuck with my situation for the forsake future and will just have to fight the wobble?

Well, we can still try to "tune it down" which is what all this discussion is about.
Let's get one thing at a time dialed in and see where it leads.
And again, definitely still try the tire rotation test. Hey, what's another half an hour of your time at this point, right?;)%)

Definitely going to get an adjustable draglink, seems like this will help more than one issue.

Definitely.

...and going to get a drop bracket. Like I asked before, just to be sure it is seen, with all my questions ha! Can I adjust the actual "drop" of the drop bracket, making it less if needed?

Less is usually easier than more. Just like your other bracket where the hole was re-done and braced, a new hole and reinforcement can be done in just about any bracket with the extra material in the right place. You need to keep the bushings within the flat/square portion so they sit flat/flush against the metal, but there is leeway in many brackets, as mentioned above.
So yes, basically you want the dropped pitman arm, then (since the arm is not as easy to change the drop on) make/tweak/adjust the trackbar bracket to match the pitman arm.

Ok, so in conclusion, I need to purchase a drop bracket, a drop pitman, an adjustable drag link, and adjustable trac bar. Fit the Pitman and Drop bracket, and make adjustments to the drop bracket if necessary Fix the lower trac bar bolt weld .Am I on the right path? As I can not afford to buy new wheels at this point. Then get the truck aligned.

Precisely. One additional thing to keep in mind when "adjusting" the angle of the trackbar is, since you need to re-weld the lower one anyway, is that you could possibly modify the lower mount slightly as well.
Just like you were thinking with the riser concept, it's very possible to kill two birds with one stone without going the full riser route.
Once you get a good setup on the upper ends to get the bars as parallel as possible, whatever extra angle change you need could be accomplished on the lower mount.

There are many discussions over the years here about how members have made lower mounts for their trackbar. Worth looking into perhaps.
Maybe someone reading this now will chime in and post pics of theirs. It used to be pretty common, but the easy availability of the riser has put at least some of those custom fabbed ones on the back burner on more recent builds. But there is always still the need for the occasional home-built stuff.

Good luck.

Paul
 
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mduenas

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I think I have finally cured my death wobble (well lets hope).

The lower trac bar bolt weld was not intact. That weld has been redone and done heavily, I am no longer concern about that. After that was welded, I took the truck on every single big bump I could find, and no wobble, steering seems much more responsive.

I did not put a drop bracket or drop pitman arm on yet, but t the same time, when hitting the bumps, the car no longer changed directions, is it possible the broken trac bar bolt was the cause of my bump steer as well? I do need to fix the geometry if it is a serious issue, but right now I didnt feel it pulling one way or another?

I also got my alignment done, tires rotated and balanced again. It feels much better on the road, as I fear my alignment was WAY off. I have uploaded my spec sheet. Thank you all for the help, now it seem Is just have some tweaking to do.
 

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DirtDonk

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The lower trac bar bolt weld was not intact.
...[after welding] steering seems much more responsive.

I did not put a drop bracket or drop pitman arm on yet, but t the same time, when hitting the bumps, the car no longer changed directions, is it possible the broken trac bar bolt was the cause of my bump steer as well?

I also got my alignment done, tires rotated and balanced again. It feels much better on the road, as I fear my alignment was WAY off.

Everything you did went to help. So there's really no way of knowing what individual (if any) item reduced the bump steer, aided your steering responsiveness, or got rid of the wobble.
You adjusted toe-in, rotated the tires, balanced the tires, and welded the trackbar mount.
Frankly, each one helped, and any one could have helped a lot. And all of them together are very likely a HUGE help.
The trackbar mount in itself did not create the conditions for bump-steer. But it being loose sure did nothing to reduce it. So welding it better was something that you definitely had to do. And it alone would aid in steering response, but the toe-in change could have done that all on it's own as well.
The conditions for Death Wobble start at the tire, but with a change in toe, a change in balance, and a tighter trackbar may have rid the vehicle of the ability to turn into a full blown wobble. But rotating the tires kind of masks what actually did the deed.

Glad you got it dealt with to a high level. Just no way to know if one of those fixes was more important than another in one particular area. Unless down the road you decide to rotate the tires again (usually a good practice) and the wobble comes back.
But all were still pretty critical I would say. Good to get the rig back on the road without the stress of wondering when it's going to try to buck out of your hands!

Enjoy the ride.

Paul
 

Cortez

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Jan 29, 2009
Messages
1,193
I think I have finally cured my death wobble (well lets hope).

Congratulations....now you don’t have to cringe as you hit a bump and hopefully don’t have to change your shorts as often. DW is a horrible experience. Hope it stays gone. I have been following and think I have the same unwelded bolt issue - always something good to learn on this forum.
 

bronconut73

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Originally Posted by mduenas View Post
Unfortunately for me now, I know that is the backspacing, as I found what ones I actually ordered. This is the post I made about what to get, and it seem Is was ill informed: http://classicbroncos.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=279325


I have ran your same wheel and tire combo for decades with no DW. Its likely not your wheels Bud. It is more likely it is one of the many things you and Paul are discussing,
 

rjrobin2002

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Track bar issue seems the cause 95% of the time when you tie rod and ball joints are good. That loose lower bolt got you which is the rarer cause.
 
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