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Leaf VS 4 Link Coil for Street Use

marcussly27

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
May 6, 2015
Messages
143
School me guys! I have a restomod project that will be street/highway driven 95% of the time with a 2.5 BL, 1 inch SL, 285/70/17s. I want the best ride quality I can get. What's the advantage of a 4 link coil system over leafs on the street/highway?

I'm looking at the Krawlers Edge Quad Link Coil system, or just keeping the leafs that come the Wild Horses Premium 2.5 Bilstein suspension kit. Apologies if this has already been discussed as I couldn't find an answer. Thanks!
 

Skiddy

Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
11,557
I love 4 link, but I don't do a lot of road mileage and I don't have 4 link lol. you get a lot of body roll and with leaf springs its kept under control a whole lot better
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,239
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Upper SoKA
I don't see a pay-off in a street driven 4 link under a fairly normal EB.

If you're thinking to challenge this Scout II at Autocross, then that's different......

At the very least use WH's latest leaf springs. If you want better than that look into longer rear leafs. The GM 63's have enough reduced internal friction that they need a small step-up in shock damping. This is a good thing, makes the springs react to bumps faster. The WH springs have the same design features that allow this.
 

68ford

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Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
For best ride on the street, get the softest springs you can and run a sway bar. Look underneath "smooth riding" vehicles and you'll find the common denominator is soft springs for a good ride and sway bar to control lean that come with soft springs. That being said a 4 link with a sway bar would be your best option. But hard to justify the cost. In my opinion, if anyone goes to the trouble and money to link a vehicle, coilovers should be a must.
 

bbaltered

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
109
I put a 4 link and coilovers on mine , it rides and handles so much better . I would not go back to leafs . However , I built my own so cost was about the same as what new leafs and shocks would have cost . I don't think I would have done it if it was going to cost me over 2 grand .
 

Dinger

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Apr 12, 2016
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63
Loc.
Tallahassee
For best ride on the street, get the softest springs you can and run a sway bar. Look underneath "smooth riding" vehicles and you'll find the common denominator is soft springs for a good ride and sway bar to control lean that come with soft springs. That being said a 4 link with a sway bar would be your best option. But hard to justify the cost. In my opinion, if anyone goes to the trouble and money to link a vehicle, coilovers should be a must.

Great thread, so if going with the 2.5 Bilstein set up, what sway bar would work? Looking at this same system, don’t mean to hijack your thread.
 

Yeller

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Mar 27, 2012
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I love 4 link, but I don't do a lot of road mileage and I don't have 4 link lol. you get a lot of body roll and with leaf springs its kept under control a whole lot better

Properly set up with coils, not really the case however sway bars are a great tuning tool to get what you want. Just depends, the newest leafs ride really nice but I like the tight handling and tunability of links, but it does have a higher cost. With coil overs, I believe a swaybar is required, whether street driven or not, if it doesn't handle well on the street it doesn't handle well in the dirt either, the dirt just masks it so its less scary.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,239
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Herb Adams was one of the first to promote soft springs, good shocks, and appropriate sway bars to build a good handling vehicle. He was talking cars like Trans-Am and similar, but the method works in lots of other applications as well.

Soft springs conform to the ground surface for best tire tracking of the surface, good shocks control the suspension to keep the tire on the ground, and swaybars control the body roll in corners.

I'd like to see someone try using a 3.5" spring and remove the shorter leaves to arrive at a 2.5" lift with a low spring rate. I *think* that this would work really well, but it would take some spring tuning to get just right.
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
Ntsqd, I did something similar. On my ranger race pack, I took out 2nd from the bottom and 4thbfromnthe bottom. Softer, settled more for lower ride height, but still had same over all travel.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,239
Loc.
Upper SoKA
I've done it too on GM 63's, but what I'd really like to see is an EB specific spring pack tuned for a lower ride height coupled with a softer spring rate. Maybe I'll have to do it on the Bronc-up.

FWIW I use this user name everywhere. Those posts on rdc, cK5, expo, aa, etc. are mine.
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
I did that a long time ago to a set of wild horses leafs. Back sat really tall. Took out the odd ball length 11th first first. Then the very bottom and 3rd from the bottom. Always thought to skip a spring when removing for some reason. It lowered it about 1.5 at first then settled down my be 2in reletively soon. Much softer and better all around. All the eb packs seem way too stiff. Almost like if you took a set to Deaver and said make me this same pack with same arch but 1/4 or 3/8 narrower to lower the rate. Probably work pretty nice.
 

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
School me guys! I have a restomod project that will be street/highway driven 95% of the time with a 2.5 BL, 1 inch SL, 285/70/17s. I want the best ride quality I can get. What's the advantage of a 4 link coil system over leafs on the street/highway?

I'm looking at the Krawlers Edge Quad Link Coil system, or just keeping the leafs that come the Wild Horses Premium 2.5 Bilstein suspension kit. Apologies if this has already been discussed as I couldn't find an answer. Thanks!

If ride quality is your driving factor, here are some things to consider:

- In general, leaf springs will ride rougher than multi-link suspension due to internal friction in the leaf packs. You just can't tune that out with spring rate or shock tuning.

- HOWEVER triangulated 4-link is NOT the best for ride quality. This type of suspension is better suited to long-travel race applications like desert trucks. The reason is most 4-links use rod-ends or Johnny Joints to keep the links rigid to promote handling. Especially lateral stiffness, giving you crisp cornering feel. That stiffness sacrifices the tire's ability to recede in the wheel well when it encounters a pot hole, bridge seam, rock, etc, leading to increased noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) in the cab.

- Leaf springs have natural recession compliance, since they are a spring AND they usually are equipped with rubber bushings. Rubber is present in any modern suspension to damp out NVH, so it is possible that a leaf spring will deliver better ride quality than a race-oriented 4-link.

- The BEST suspension for a solid axle is going to be a 3-link with torque arm OR a parallel 4-link with trackbar (like a Jeep). A 3-link or parallel 4-link will beat a triangulated 4-link hands-down because it has the ability to divorce lateral and longitudinal compliance, meaning you can make the suspension stiff laterally using small, stiff bushings or cross-axis ball joints AND make it compliant longitudinally using large, soft rubber bushings to reduce NVH. The 3-link with torque arm has a slight edge on the parallel 4-link because it can further divorce the thrust loads from the torque loads. So to take it a step further, you can make the longitudinal links even softer without worrying about excessive axle wrap. The downside is that 3-link/torque arm is the hardest to package.

- Other considerations are spring rate and shock tuning. Spring rate is a little trickier than it appears at first because it has many down stream effects. OE dynamics engineers examine the natural frequencies of the front and rear, which are a combination of spring rate and sprung mass. The rear will always be a higher frequency than the front in order to reduce excessive pitching when a bump is encountered at speed. This means that if your truck has a 50/50 weight bias, your rear spring rate should be higher than your front. If the rear is lighter than the front, you may be closer to the same spring rate f/r, but the rear system frequency will be higher.

- Soft springs are generally better for passenger comfort, but too soft and it will feel like a boat on the water. (again bad). Interestingly, American engineers still tune slightly softer than their European counterparts. You can ride in some American cars and tell they were tuned by a European.

- SHOCKS: A person could spend a lifetime learning shock tuning. The easy answer is buy Bilstein digressively damped shocks that are tuned specifically for a Bronco. The only way to get better shocks is to learn to tune your own and buy rebuildable/ tune-able shocks like Bilstein 7100s or Fox coilovers.

- SWAY BARS: Sway bars are usually required for solid axle applications. Roll rate in a corner is determined by Center of Gravity, Roll Axis height, suspension geometry and spring rates. Solid axle vehicles have naturally low roll stiffness due to the inherent geometry of solid axles. (vs IFS/IRS)
DO NOT try to fix a roll stiffness issue with shocks or springs alone. Spring rate should be driven by straight-line ride performance. Shocks are mostly driven by straight-line performance. Some excessive DYNAMIC body roll can be handled by shocks, but sway bars should be used to tune body roll AFTER everything else is set. (springs/shocks/geometry, etc)
 
Last edited:

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,239
Loc.
Upper SoKA
While they'll never get close to the internal friction of a coil spring, have you looked at what GM (& now WH) has done with regard to leaf spring internal friction? Simple things that should have been done years and years ago. I've modified a set of yota application OME's to be like this, but I think they're too tall to use (& not enough leaves to remove to make them better).

There are shops out there who can tune dampers based solely on the owners vehicle and use descriptions. I know of two who've done remarkable jobs for friends. No those dampers aren't going to win the next Baja 1k race, they're not that well tuned, but for a mixed use casual driver they work very well. Helps that both vehicles are more common than an EB so the shops have more depth in tuning for those vehicles.
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
Digger556, what progressively dampened shocks from Bilstein are you referring too? To my knowledge, to get a variable valve/dampened shock, you have to get into the 7100 series with a external bypass style or from king a 2.5 diameter internal bypass.
 

ame

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2016
Messages
191
Digger556, what progressively dampened shocks from Bilstein are you referring too? To my knowledge, to get a variable valve/dampened shock, you have to get into the 7100 series with a external bypass style or from king a 2.5 diameter internal bypass.

You can get Progressively valved 2.0" shocks and some Bilsiten 5100s are progressive i believe but most are Digressive which is a very bad combination with soft springs. You do not need bypasses to have progressive dampening.
 

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
Digger556, what progressively dampened shocks from Bilstein are you referring too? To my knowledge, to get a variable valve/dampened shock, you have to get into the 7100 series with a external bypass style or from king a 2.5 diameter internal bypass.

Sorry, I mis-typed. I meant "digressively valve".

My understanding is that many of the Bilstein shocks (5125, 5150, 5165, 6100, 7100), use the same 46mm pistons, so it is possible to install a digressive stack into a shock besides the 7100s, although they are my go-to choice at the moment.

You do not need external bypass for digressive valving, you don't even need an external reservoir.


I don't have any personal experience with them, but I hear good things about the 5100s sold by Wild Horses. (maybe other vendors too?)
 
OP
OP
M

marcussly27

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
May 6, 2015
Messages
143
If ride quality is your driving factor, here are some things to consider:

- In general, leaf springs will ride rougher than multi-link suspension due to internal friction in the leaf packs. You just can't tune that out with spring rate or shock tuning.

- HOWEVER triangulated 4-link is NOT the best for ride quality. This type of suspension is better suited to long-travel race applications like desert trucks. The reason is most 4-links use rod-ends or Johnny Joints to keep the links rigid to promote handling. Especially lateral stiffness, giving you crisp cornering feel. That stiffness sacrifices the tire's ability to recede in the wheel well when it encounters a pot hole, bridge seam, rock, etc, leading to increased noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) in the cab.

- Leaf springs have natural recession compliance, since they are a spring AND they usually are equipped with rubber bushings. Rubber is present in any modern suspension to damp out NVH, so it is possible that a leaf spring will deliver better ride quality than a race-oriented 4-link.

- The BEST suspension for a solid axle is going to be a 3-link with torque arm OR a parallel 4-link with trackbar (like a Jeep). A 3-link or parallel 4-link will beat a triangulated 4-link hands-down because it has the ability to divorce lateral and longitudinal compliance, meaning you can make the suspension stiff laterally using small, stiff bushings or cross-axis ball joints AND make it compliant longitudinally using large, soft rubber bushings to reduce NVH. The 3-link with torque arm has a slight edge on the parallel 4-link because it can further divorce the thrust loads from the torque loads. So to take it a step further, you can make the longitudinal links even softer without worrying about excessive axle wrap. The downside is that 3-link/torque arm is the hardest to package.

- Other considerations are spring rate and shock tuning. Spring rate is a little trickier than it appears at first because it has many down stream effects. OE dynamics engineers examine the natural frequencies of the front and rear, which are a combination of spring rate and sprung mass. The rear will always be a higher frequency than the front in order to reduce excessive pitching when a bump is encountered at speed. This means that if your truck has a 50/50 weight bias, your rear spring rate should be higher than your front. If the rear is lighter than the front, you may be closer to the same spring rate f/r, but the rear system frequency will be higher.

- Soft springs are generally better for passenger comfort, but too soft and it will feel like a boat on the water. (again bad). Interestingly, American engineers still tune slightly softer than their European counterparts. You can ride in some American cars and tell they were tuned by a European.

- SHOCKS: A person could spend a lifetime learning shock tuning. The easy answer is buy Bilstein digressively damped shocks that are tuned specifically for a Bronco. The only way to get better shocks is to learn to tune your own and buy rebuildable/ tune-able shocks like Bilstein 7100s or Fox coilovers.

- SWAY BARS: Sway bars are usually required for solid axle applications. Roll rate in a corner is determined by Center of Gravity, Roll Axis height, suspension geometry and spring rates. Solid axle vehicles have naturally low roll stiffness due to the inherent geometry of solid axles. (vs IFS/IRS)
DO NOT try to fix a roll stiffness issue with shocks or springs alone. Spring rate should be driven by straight-line ride performance. Shocks are mostly driven by straight-line performance. Some excessive DYNAMIC body roll can be handled by shocks, but sway bars should be used to tune body roll AFTER everything else is set. (springs/shocks/geometry, etc)

WOW... you dumped a lifetime of knowledge on me Digger, much appreciated. I can't say that I totally understand what your saying, but I'm trying to digest it. I think in the end, the most cost effective and simple solution seams to be the best... stick with the WH Bilstein set up w/ leafs which they specifically tuned for street use. I'll need to call them to see if they have any other mods recommended for my specific use but it seems pretty straight forward per their website description. In the end, the KE Quad Link system's slight benefit on the street (which is arguable it seems) doesn't justify the complexity and cost associated with it. Thanks guys... best damn group of car loving guys around
 

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
I think in the end, the most cost effective and simple solution seams to be the best... stick with the WH Bilstein set up w/ leafs which they specifically tuned for street use.


That's pretty much the take away unless you want to go nuts and design your own suspension.
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
The only issue with running a soft enough leaf pack to really ride what I call nice on the street, is when it is that soft, it will wrap some on acceleration and flex side to side some. Will you feel it? Probably not. Weight in the back will also make it squat more. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. A soft 4 link will squat just the same, but locate the axle much better.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,239
Loc.
Upper SoKA
Already solved, by Toyota on their Mini-trucks. Take a good, close look at their over-load leaf and how it would behave in spring wrap and articulation. Not a perfect solution, but nothing is and it works well.
 
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