Chinese Bronco regrets

[ngsd]

While I think it is cool you could build an entire Bronco from new with aftermarket parts, part of me recently is having anxiety over it due to the Ukraine invasion. The thought of how a communist country can wield their power and murder thousands of innocent people without the world coming to their rescue truly saddens me. The dependency that Europe has on Russian fuel and other infrastructure prevents them from supporting too much and having a total collapse of their economy.

Consider what would happen when China wants to start annexing the rest of their neighbors or even fight the US. Can you imagine that the US is prepared to sanction China or really stop them with as much dependency as we have on them today? Everything we buy from Walmart down comes form them. When you look at most of the Bronco vendor websites, look at how much of that stuff is from China. Most of it.

It has really affected the way I think about supporting my hobby knowing that all of this money is going to strengthening the country that is most likely to be our largest threat and enemy. I hope we don't look back at this and regret paying for them to use it against us.

Rant over.

 

[Shimmy]

i hear ya on that but the ship sailed back in the late 90s for that

 

[Rustytruck]

if it wasn't for the Chinese doing it, it would be done. I very well remember the 10 years Ford quit making our early Bronco parts while we wait for someone to come along and make replacement parts. there was a very short line of people antiing up to solve our first world problems. then the Chinese came and bailed us out and you want to fault them for their very existence.

 

[ngsd]

if it wasn't for the Chinese doing it, it would be done. I very well remember the 10 years Ford quit making our early Bronco parts while we wait for someone to come along and make replacement parts. there was a very short line of people antiing up to solve our first world problems. then the Chinese came and bailed us out and you want to fault them for their very existence.

That is an interesting view of it.

 

[jamesroney]

i hear ya on that but the ship sailed back in the late 90s for that

This is true.

The migration to low cost off shore manufacturing did begin in the 90's...but there are TWO very different things that we call China.

The island of Taiwan, founded by an exiled Chang Kai Shek is a Democratic Republic, founded on American principles, and is really a capitalist society that has thrived. It is largely religious, and when you are there...you will feel very much at home.
Mainland China is a totally different story. Run by Communists, with a total lack of individual liberty. It's the home of technology theft, forced abortion, and censorship.

There IS a difference. If you are being shot at by the Chinese, they are using Kalashnikovs and MIG's. If you are being shot at by the Taiwanese, they are using M-16's and F-16's.

The original Pacific Migration started in the 90s', but it was the early 2000's that brought the mainland China SEZ (Special Economic Zone) into prominence. Guanzhou province (Shenzhen + Dongguan) , Xiamen, and Suzhou were the beginning of the capitalist revolution. Entrepreneurs from Taiwan, and Hong Kong built factories in those zones. At $2.40 per hour fully burdened labor rate, it is very hard to compete with outsourcing. Especially when the SEZ provides zero customs duties as long as you keep your books clean, and no VAT. $2.40 per hour for a direct laborer, and a supervisor, and all labor expenses. (the equivalent to collective bargaining dues.) Permits and Environmental regulations were pretty lax back then too.

The Chinese don't consider you an enemy. They don't consider you as an equal. They don't think much of you at all. You simply exist. Dogs exist. Cats exist. As long as there are mutually beneficial reasons to co-exist, then they will. From that perspective it is very much "Borg like." The average Chinese engineer or technician or laborer is just trying to make a living. They get to keep about 42% of their marginal earnings, and the more they work, the more they make. In that context, they are more "capitalist" then we are. (figure 45% income tax, and 13% VAT) In CA, we get to keep about 28% of earnings. (figure 35% fed, 13% state, 10% VAT, 5% property tax, 7.65% SS/medicare, 2% misc transportation, fuel and insurance tax) That's at the marginal rate, so it's only accurate on the next dollar you make.

I highly encourage everyone to tour Suzhou at least once in their life. Almost every building has a name on the front that you will recognize. A City of 15 million people, and no international airport. It is insane. And yes, that ship has sailed. And it isn't pointed back. Every iphone, computer chip, LCD panel, and TV is coming from there. But not just that. Tools, toys, machines, you name it. All coming from there. As costs rise, Low Cost manufacturing is now moving east, into Southeast Asia.

It does hurt a little to know that Americans are paying the Chinese to buy Russian oil to pay for the bullets used to kill the Ukranians.

 

[ngsd]

All very true and good points. It is the human rights issues that haunt me as well as the lack of freedom of speech and the need for power that comes from communistic societies. Ultimately they end up with a lot of power controlled by a few deranged groups. It is our own greed that has created this problem though. We protect our children and low wages only to support another country doing it and lose the revenue to make us feel better? I cant say that I will quit buying non American made parts yet but it is starting to affect me in ways that I never considered before.

 

[SteveL]

Back when chuck was running bc he worked hard to source most of his products were made in the USA. It did lead to some higher prices and back orders. I don't mind paying a little more or waiting a little longer to get usa made products. I don't know if Jason still follows that policy
.

 

[ngsd]

It is pretty tough for the vendors to stay in business unless they compete on price as most people wont pay more for American made. I get it and am not harping on the businesses. I am in business too and know the pressures.

 

[lars]

This is true.

The migration to low cost off shore manufacturing did begin in the 90's...but there are TWO very different things that we call China.

The island of Taiwan, founded by an exiled Chang Kai Shek is a Democratic Republic, founded on American principles, and is really a capitalist society that has thrived. It is largely religious, and when you are there...you will feel very much at home.
Mainland China is a totally different story. Run by Communists, with a total lack of individual liberty. It's the home of technology theft, forced abortion, and censorship.

There IS a difference. If you are being shot at by the Chinese, they are using Kalashnikovs and MIG's. If you are being shot at by the Taiwanese, they are using M-16's and F-16's.

The original Pacific Migration started in the 90s', but it was the early 2000's that brought the mainland China SEZ (Special Economic Zone) into prominence. Guanzhou province (Shenzhen + Dongguan) , Xiamen, and Suzhou were the beginning of the capitalist revolution. Entrepreneurs from Taiwan, and Hong Kong built factories in those zones. At $2.40 per hour fully burdened labor rate, it is very hard to compete with outsourcing. Especially when the SEZ provides zero customs duties as long as you keep your books clean, and no VAT. $2.40 per hour for a direct laborer, and a supervisor, and all labor expenses. (the equivalent to collective bargaining dues.) Permits and Environmental regulations were pretty lax back then too.

The Chinese don't consider you an enemy. They don't consider you as an equal. They don't think much of you at all. You simply exist. Dogs exist. Cats exist. As long as there are mutually beneficial reasons to co-exist, then they will. From that perspective it is very much "Borg like." The average Chinese engineer or technician or laborer is just trying to make a living. They get to keep about 42% of their marginal earnings, and the more they work, the more they make. In that context, they are more "capitalist" then we are. (figure 45% income tax, and 13% VAT) In CA, we get to keep about 28% of earnings. (figure 35% fed, 13% state, 10% VAT, 5% property tax, 7.65% SS/medicare, 2% misc transportation, fuel and insurance tax) That's at the marginal rate, so it's only accurate on the next dollar you make.

I highly encourage everyone to tour Suzhou at least once in their life. Almost every building has a name on the front that you will recognize. A City of 15 million people, and no international airport. It is insane. And yes, that ship has sailed. And it isn't pointed back. Every iphone, computer chip, LCD panel, and TV is coming from there. But not just that. Tools, toys, machines, you name it. All coming from there. As costs rise, Low Cost manufacturing is now moving east, into Southeast Asia.

It does hurt a little to know that Americans are paying the Chinese to buy Russian oil to pay for the bullets used to kill the Ukranians.

Sounds like you've been there, both to Taiwan and mainland China. I stepped out of my engineering career before I had the opportunity. Would love to hear more about your experiences, if that possibility ever arises. I have worked with engineers from both countries back in the day, very different indeed.

 

[jamesroney]

Sounds like you've been there, both to Taiwan and mainland China. I stepped out of my engineering career before I had the opportunity. Would love to hear more about your experiences, if that possibility ever arises. I have worked with engineers from both countries back in the day, very different indeed.

United Premier 1K...woo hoo!

I counted it once. 37 trips to Taiwan, and 47 trips to Mainland China. So yeah, I've seen it. If you want to know how to displace American workers, and the lies of going offshore...I'm your guy. I even got my six sigma black belt for it. (Technically a vertical integration exercise, but yeah.)

If you like to visit the Facebook campus in Menlo Park...please show a minute of respect for the dead Radiation Chemistry business that was murdered there. I'm not saying that outsourcing killed a thriving Billion Dollar company, but I was there...and it is dead.

Would love to chat. Maybe you can get your Bronco out of the hangar and we can meet on the trail.

Or at $7.00 per gallon of gas, maybe we can photoshop a picture of our Bronco's on the trail, and we can meet on Zoom.

I'm sure I'll see you again. take care!

 

[duffymahoney]

My Bumperlifts would be 100$ a set out of china. So 50% less to sell them and I bet sales would be higher. But I picked a local machine shop, so those dollars stay local and help families here. The cost of US parts is higher prices though, and I would venture to guess it has hurt sales.

 

[bigmuddy]

This is true.

The migration to low cost off shore manufacturing did begin in the 90's...but there are TWO very different things that we call China.

The island of Taiwan, founded by an exiled Chang Kai Shek is a Democratic Republic, founded on American principles, and is really a capitalist society that has thrived. It is largely religious, and when you are there...you will feel very much at home.
Mainland China is a totally different story. Run by Communists, with a total lack of individual liberty. It's the home of technology theft, forced abortion, and censorship.

There IS a difference. If you are being shot at by the Chinese, they are using Kalashnikovs and MIG's. If you are being shot at by the Taiwanese, they are using M-16's and F-16's.

The original Pacific Migration started in the 90s', but it was the early 2000's that brought the mainland China SEZ (Special Economic Zone) into prominence. Guanzhou province (Shenzhen + Dongguan) , Xiamen, and Suzhou were the beginning of the capitalist revolution. Entrepreneurs from Taiwan, and Hong Kong built factories in those zones. At $2.40 per hour fully burdened labor rate, it is very hard to compete with outsourcing. Especially when the SEZ provides zero customs duties as long as you keep your books clean, and no VAT. $2.40 per hour for a direct laborer, and a supervisor, and all labor expenses. (the equivalent to collective bargaining dues.) Permits and Environmental regulations were pretty lax back then too.

The Chinese don't consider you an enemy. They don't consider you as an equal. They don't think much of you at all. You simply exist. Dogs exist. Cats exist. As long as there are mutually beneficial reasons to co-exist, then they will. From that perspective it is very much "Borg like." The average Chinese engineer or technician or laborer is just trying to make a living. They get to keep about 42% of their marginal earnings, and the more they work, the more they make. In that context, they are more "capitalist" then we are. (figure 45% income tax, and 13% VAT) In CA, we get to keep about 28% of earnings. (figure 35% fed, 13% state, 10% VAT, 5% property tax, 7.65% SS/medicare, 2% misc transportation, fuel and insurance tax) That's at the marginal rate, so it's only accurate on the next dollar you make.

I highly encourage everyone to tour Suzhou at least once in their life. Almost every building has a name on the front that you will recognize. A City of 15 million people, and no international airport. It is insane. And yes, that ship has sailed. And it isn't pointed back. Every iphone, computer chip, LCD panel, and TV is coming from there. But not just that. Tools, toys, machines, you name it. All coming from there. As costs rise, Low Cost manufacturing is now moving east, into Southeast Asia.

It does hurt a little to know that Americans are paying the Chinese to buy Russian oil to pay for the bullets used to kill the Ukranians.

Although I haven't been to Suzhou, I have been to Bejing and Dalian China and a few of the rural areas about three years ago for business. I was taken aback about how most of China is relatively rural and how most Chinese have never seen a westerner in person. I do agree though that most if not the majority do not think of us at all and are just trying to make some money and feed their families... I had hoped to go back a few times but it didn't work out.

 

[Slowleak]

Although I haven't been to Suzhou, I have been to Bejing and Dalian China and a few of the rural areas about three years ago for business. I was taken aback about how most of China is relatively rural and how most Chinese have never seen a westerner in person. I do agree though that most if not the majority do not think of us at all and are just trying to make some money and feed their families... I had hoped to go back a few times but it didn't work out.

I worked with a guy who travelled to China a lot. He said the same thing about the rural areas. He was a relatively tall guy over there. His Chinese co-workers called him “Long Grain”.

 

[ngsd]

I think for the most part that people are all the same. They want the same things and happiness. Given the opportunity, they would be united in peace if it were not for the power hungry dictators that take control. I just pray that the world comes together for Ukraine before too many more are slaughtered and that the rest of the world pays attention to not let this continue to happen. After what the history books looked like after Hitler, why are we not preventing history from repeating itself? I am a dreamer though. I have no issue with buying non American parts if I am buying form a country that recognizes human rights. I just struggle with feeding an evil communist engine that may ignite one day.

 

[bigmuddy]

Long Grain! Man, that is too funny, one of our engineers is like 6ft 8" and I wish I had though of that as he really drew some stares. Although our main lab tech is about 5' 10" tall but around 400+ and talk about a site to see them walking around in rural China! Camera's were popping everywhere!

 

[bigmuddy]

I think for the most part that people are all the same. They want the same things and happiness. Given the opportunity, they would be united in peace if it were not for the power hungry dictators that take control. I just pray that the world comes together for Ukraine before too many more are slaughtered and that the rest of the world pays attention to not let this continue to happen. After what the history books looked like after Hitler, why are we not preventing history from repeating itself? I am a dreamer though. I have no issue with buying non American parts if I am buying form a country that recognizes human rights. I just struggle with feeding an evil communist engine that may ignite one day.

I always found it weird to work at the time for a 5th generation company that is very pro-America/Pro-human rights and gives money every year to wide variety of charities in the US, but they were fine with the idea of doing business with the Chinese or really any country that had less than a stellar humanitarian record for that matter.

 

[bmc69]

My company was exporting marine control systems to China back in early 2000s. Our local rep and tech support company was in Shenzen but the shipyard we supplied to, and supported on site, is just outside Guangzhou. I made several trips there, for weeks at a time. Stayed in a 4-star hotel in Guangzhou and commuted to the ship yard across the river every day. Interesting times....and, I must say, enjoyable ones too.

 

[JefeAZ]

I very well remember the 10 years Ford quit making our early Bronco parts while we wait for someone to come along and make replacement parts.

When was that?

 

[ngsd]

I wonder how we will handle the conflict once China invades Taiwan? They are doing practice drills agin and it seems inevitable. This will cause a mess internationally.

 

[Slowleak]

Scranton Joe has it covered.