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Question on toe

ksagis

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Wondering what people are using for toe-in for various size tires and build configuration.

The guy who built my rig (Glen Straightiff) recommended 0.0 to +0.1 degrees total toe. (My rig has 5.5" SL, no body lift, coilovers on all four corners with 35 x 13.5 x 15 Krawlers and I'm looking to get a little better freeway handling.

Also wondering what folk's opinions are for total toe and how it might affect handling versus tire wear. i.e. if one runs a little more toe, can it help with driving at freeway speeds,, particularly with bigger tires, at the expense of more tire wear/worse gas mileage?
 

Broncobowsher

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I vary my toe also based on the age and how broken in the steering part are. All fresh ball joints and steering gets a little less toe and as it ages I go a little more. As in going from 1/8 to 3/16"

For highway manors I look mostly at caster angle. Presence of sway bar, or two. Scrub radius is not to be ignored as well.
 

Wes harden

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+Caster will help with high speed manners. 5.5" lift changed your caster. short wheel base and lift mean needs more +caster.
This is all things being tight and equal. Worn steering components will exaggerate squirreliness.
Adding toe in might make the feel more confident, but you are just wearing out your tires.
I would guess you need <+6° caster.
 
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ksagis

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I'm currently at 7.2 degree left caster and 7.6 degree right caster. Suspension components all tight.

0.1 degree of toe on 35s would result in 1/16" measured difference on 35" tires when rotated front to back and measuring the difference (1/16" seems less than what most people are running). I think I got that math right....
 

DirtDonk

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What size wheels and what offset/backspacing if you know that bit of info?
No getting around the fact that 13" wide 35's (I think you said they measure at 33.5?) will have their effect on steering just by weight and leverage. So making every setting, and the condition of every component even more critical.
Wheels with negative offset impact that leverage factor even more severely.

I don't know if a wider tire (or a taller one) would like more toe-in or less. I've said every setup is different and that's true. But many do fall into that range that Broncobowsher was saying. The magic 1/8-3/16 inch area. Right within the original factory specifications of 1/8 to 1/4 inch toe-in.

For further info that I think should be added, ksagis has full custom front and rear end setups. Still radius arms and trackbar in front, but totally custom built with "Heim" steering and a cross-over draglink with coil-overs. Similar triangulated 4-link (I think?) with coil-overs in the rear.
Which is how there is 5.5" of lift and 7+ degrees of positive caster.
Unless that was negative! :rolleyes:

So along with this being a discussion about toe-in, maybe a separate discussion about link geometry on Broncos is called for.
But toe-in is a great start and an important aspect of road manners no matter what suspension setup and center of gravity and roll-center a vehicle is sporting.

Paul
 

Rustytruck

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I use 1/8 to 1/4 inch depending on tire size 1/8 at 30" 3/16 at 33 inch and 1/4 inch at 35-37 inch. alot of factors go into this. my factory Tacoma uses very little toe in makes it a pain in the ass to drive but the gas mileage is better and tires lasted 70,000 miles. itas all a trade off. Broncos need more toe in due to the lack of caster built into the axle.
 

DirtDonk

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Which means that the OP might be able to get away with less toe-in than normal due to his higher than normal caster readings.
I think his toe is already very minimal, but he is experiencing wander (which could be due to many things) which is why I always say play around with the toe settings just in case it can help.
It's easily doable at home, and easily returnable to where it was if it does not make a good difference.

Paul
 

Apogee

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I generally run about 3/16" with 35"-37" tires.
 

1970 Palmer

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It's a very easy adjustment to just twist in a little more toe in, five minutes tops. Just try it and see if you experience any improvement. I think Rusty's suggested numbers are very close for the given tire diameter.
 
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ksagis

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All, I'm going to write this post as much to collect my thoughts, perhaps give others food for thought / fodder to comment on, and possibly help others. Looking through as many forum postings as I could on toe-in and getting excellent advice from Paul (DirtDonk) in a separate PM thread, it sounds like most people have good luck someplace in the range of 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch. Mathing that out to total toe give me:

33" tires: 1/8 inch is 0.217 degrees of total toe, 1/4 inch is 0.434 degrees of total toe
35" tires: 1/8 inch is 0.204 degrees of total toe, 1/4 inch is 0.409 degrees of total toe (my 35" Krawlers measure to 34.5 inch diameter)
37" tires: 1/8 inch is 0.193 degrees of total toe, 1/4 inch is 0.387 degrees of total toe

If I did that math right, tire diameter isn't a super big impact on total toe.

My current thinking is bigger (wider and taller) tires tend put more leverage on the suspension parts such that the toe in is reduced under driving conditions. Maybe there is a speed component as well. i.e. going faster with big tires tends to reduce the amount of toe in more than smaller tires maybe? Like Broncobowsher posted, I bet another factor is how tight or loose the steering linkage (tie rods, etc) is being a factor, i.e. super tight can get away with less toe, looser steering linkages will want more toe in, so the "slop" doesn't result in too much loss of toe.

I'm going to start with 1/8 inch which is 0.204 degrees (or maybe 3/16 inch) and see how it handles, and maybe creep up from there. When I get it to how I like it driving, I'll go by alignment shop to see what I ended up at. (does anybody know a good alignment shop on NorCal that works on our rigs?). Based on all the good advice, I'm guessing I'll land around 3/16 inch which is about 0.3 degree of total toe.

Setting my toe is bit harder since I have heims. I think if I don't want to mess up me streering wheel center position, that I'll need to shorten the drag link (to move passenger tire nose in) and shorten the tie rod between the knuckles (to move the driver tire nose in). If anybody has advice or pointers before I get started, I'd sure appreciate it - I'm willing to bet most heims don't have reverse threads such that it's not simply a matter of simply turning collars.

Thanks fellas.
 

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ksagis

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And I'm going to copy paste Paul's (DirtDonk) most excellent instruction on setting toe as it might be helpful to others below and reposting a picture that was stated to be from a Chilton's manual showing 1/16 inch to 1/4 inch of toe in for original Broncos.



The way I do it is more for a point of reference than the precise measurements that a computer controlled laser machine can provide. But it's pretty close and is repeatable in your driveway or on the street. You can then compare it to an alignment machine to see how your method compares.

With the vehicle on the ground, roll it forward just slightly to take up any slack in the tires that might have been there from reversing. If everything is new and tight, there is not much of this. But it's there nevertheless so it's important to roll the vehicle forward slightly before making any marks or taking measurements.

I put a piece of tape on the tread at a point across the tire tread that I determine to be approx. the level of the mounting surface or disc brake rotor in my case. Not all the way out at the edge necessarily, but by sighting down the tire and wheel you can estimate the depth you need to mark. Do this on both tires using the same method.

This bit of tape is initially placed at the 3 o'clock position when viewed from the driver's side. In other words, straight back. On the passenger side it would be the 9 o'clock position when viewed from that side. Next I place a thin pen mark on each piece of tape as the reference point for the tape measure. For this to be easy, the tape must be placed in the center of a tread lug on the tire. Best to find one that is in the same position on both tires. If the tires are full of voids, marking the tape before sticking it to the tire would probably be easier.

With a tape measure (a more rigid thick one is easier for one person to do) start at one mark and pull it out to the other. Write down the measurement. One person can do this under the truck if the tape is fairly stiff. Takes a bit of fiddling the first time, but after that it's a pretty quick process. Write the exact measurement down. You really want to be as precise as possible because of the natural less-than-precise nature of a tape measure.

Next is an important step. Roll the vehicle FORWARD ONLY! Do not back up and do it again. If you do then you must start over. That's why it's better to do this on level ground. I've done it on the steep driveway many times, but flat pavement is easier. Roll it forward so that the bits of tape that were on the back side of the tires are now on the front at the 9 o'clock (driver's) and 3 o'clock (passenger) positions. Take another measurement with the tape and write that one down too.

The difference between the two is your toe-in or toe-out.
 

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1970 Palmer

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Setting my toe is bit harder since I have heims. I think if I don't want to mess up me streering wheel center position, that I'll need to shorten the drag link and extend the tie rod between the knuckles. If anybody has advice or pointers before I get started, I'd sure appreciate it - I'm willing to bet most heims don't have reverse threads such that it's simply a matter of simply turning collars.
It's way easier to adjust Heim Joints. They make the ends in both right hand and left hand threaded ends. Any knowledgeable shop would make up the new link rods with a both a right hand, and a left hand threaded Heim end. You simply back off the lock nuts, hand turn the link rod, and then retighten the lock nuts, adjustment done. If you look closely the left hand threaded lock nuts have a small notch cut into the hex parts of the nut to help you identify the left hand thread.

On a front steer you want the shorten the tie rod length to give it more negative toe in. Just give it a quarter to a half turn and test drive it. You will find it sensitive to a small adjustment.
 
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ksagis

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That would be great if that's the case, I'll take a look at the threads tomorrow and see if one side has reverse thread, fingers crossed.

I think I'll still want to shorten drag link to keep steering wheel centered, and I'll need to account for drag link angle, and shorten it more than the rod between knuckles.
 

Wes harden

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you shouldn't need to adjust the drag link for a toe adjustment. Just tie rod. Esp if fact you do have left and right heim ends
 

DirtDonk

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And you shouldn’t ever have to worry about adjusting the draglink. If it ever needs it, based on a change in the angle of the steering wheel, you just do it. If the steering wheel does not change, you do not need to adjust the draglink.
Simple as that.

It’s only reason for it’s existence (the adjustable draglink) is to center of the steering box for any given change in ride height. Toe changes do not normally change ride height or drag link angle. It simply changes the angle of the tires in relation to each other while leaving the tie rod’s center link location unchanged.
So as said, changing toe should not change the steering wheel location, necessitating a drag link adjustment.
It’s all good theory of course, but the proof is in the doing. So do it and see what happens.

And speaking of centering steering wheels… We haven’t talked about one other cause of wandering and vague steering feel. The steering gearbox not being centered when the Bronco is at ride height.
A part of the design of the steering box has the gear mesh machined a little differently at it’s on-center position.

Even though yours is a pretty well thought out and put together Bronco, it wouldn’t hurt to rule everything out. To do this you can disconnect the draglink from the Pitman Arm and run the steering box from lock to lock counting the turns. When you’ve determined the phone number of turns, turn it back exactly halfway and that should be your specific on center position.
If the steering wheel is not centered at this point than re-center the steering wheel before doing anything else. Either by removing the steering wheel and clocking it differently on the shaft, or unbolting the shaft from the steering box and rotating until the steering wheel is straight.
Now the wheel and box are matched and you can use the wheel as your visual reference from then on.

Now you can reattach the draglink and if needed adjust it to keep the wheel centered while driving.

Simple, right? :)🙄
 

phred

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I’m running 0 toe on my truck with 35’s and about 1/8 toe on one with 33’s. Both track very well
 
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ksagis

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Appreciate all the inputs from folks! I'm going to mess with it this weekend.

While I'm chatting people up, any suggestions for torque on the heim lock nuts? I'm guessing someplace around 80-100 ft-lbs given it's size?
 

DirtDonk

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Are the shanks three-quarter inch diameter? And are they locking nuts?
 
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ksagis

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The threads are 7/8" diameter, and it does have left hand threads on the drivers side, that makes life a whole lot easier.

When I said lock nuts, I didn't mean they have a locking feature like a nylon insert, I simply meant it's a jam nut that's meant to lock the setting. 1 1/4" across flats.
 

DirtDonk

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Sorry, I was thinking the through bolts for the rod ends themselves. Not the jam nuts for the adjustment.
Not sure what those should be.
 
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