IA Needing title and glovebox door

If you want to be unethical, you can sell it to someone that will obviously try to use it to title a car it doesn't belong to..........What do you think you should do with it.

Most, if not all states, require that titles of scrapped vehicles be turned into the DMV. That prevents them, and the associated VIN, from being used on stolen vehicles. Stamping that VIN onto a frame is a federal offense.....

Slowleak said:

Most, if not all states, require that titles of scrapped vehicles be turned into the DMV. That prevents them, and the associated VIN, from being used on stolen vehicles. Stamping that VIN onto a frame is a federal offense.....

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Never heard of that in my life...

ngsd said:

If you want to be unethical, you can sell it to someone that will obviously try to use it to title a car it doesn't belong to..........What do you think you should do with it.

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Yep, I know exactly what I am going to do with it..

Likely going to end up on a new frame and titled with the old title that I know is clean as newly fallen snow%)

I have no dog in this fight but since this is an open topic.... I am just unclear as to how anyone would feel that would work. If others read this it would be worthwhile to understand the problems associated with that. Sure, the title might have been OK on one frame and body and it may not have been stolen but if you ever planned to sell it, how would it be represented and what would that do to your investment? If you were honest and told me about the history and offered me a good deal on a car with a "story" about the VIN missing, I would walk away.

Legally, you are tampering and just posting that here is not in your favor either. You are effectively using a VIN from one vehicle to another and if ever challenged it could be confiscated. With all of these uncertainties, you still have to make a choice and of course that is yours to make but others surely should take note of the risk in this.

I don’t understand people’s logic when it comes to this. In Missouri, owning a vehicle which you know has an altered VIN is a crime. Selling such a vehicle is also a crime even if the seller has no criminal intent or even knowledge of the VIN change. That means you are putting future owners at risk when they sell.

You are making it illegal to own or sell your vehicle rather than following the legal DMV process. It makes no sense to me....

Missouri:

The court in State v. Smith, 972 S.W.2d 476, 107 A.L.R.5th 791 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1998), held that the plain language of Mo. Rev. Stat. §§ 301.390.1, 301.390.6 (1994) does not require criminal intent when selling a vehicle with an altered or removed VIN. The statute's language prohibits a person from selling or offering for sale, or knowingly having the custody or possession of a motor vehicle with an altered or removed VIN. The court said that the legislature clearly and deliberately wrote the statute so that "knowingly" refers only to the crime of custody or possession, and not to the crime of selling or offering for sale. The requirement that the defendant know the VIN was altered or removed in order to be convicted thus applies only to the crime of custody or possession, and not to the crime of sale. http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

Remind me not to jaywalk in front of you guys!


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I am not any kind of Moderator or Administrator on this site so I should just keep my nose out of this, but the only reason that I say this is because I have had a for sale thread of mine totally destroyed by people who just couldn't keep their options to themselves. So I feel bad for the OP of this thread. So this is copied from the rules of this forum.

"The Classifieds forum is a place to buy and sell, not an open forum for people to give their opinions on Bronco values. Unless the seller specifically asks for help on pricing, please don't critique quality or asking price. If you're not interested then move on."

Ok, shut up now.

So you have an opinion to voice but it is ok to post that and everyone else needs to shut up. Ok, that makes sense. Public forum not private, it goes with the territory. I'll shut up now per your sage advice......

ngsd said:

So you have an opinion to voice but it is ok to post that and everyone else needs to shut up. Ok, that makes sense. Public forum not private, it goes with the territory. I'll shut up now per your sage advice......

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This is not my opinion, these are the rules set forth by the administrator of the public forum that we belong to.

And just so you know, I think this is a valid discussion to have, but just not in this poor guys thread.

Do they have a rule about people like you telling others to shut up? Get over it. This is good information and helps to clarify what the seller/buyer is looking for. I am sure that many others are not offended by it and only those that practice these types of behaviors of VIN tampering would have an issue with helping the buyer understand what he may be in for if he chooses to pursue this purchase.

What if someone puts an aftermarket frame under their old shoebox frame ford hot rod? I don’t think that this constitutes the vehicle now being titled a 2019 “whatever” due to the new chassis. I do understand the need to know how to do something correctly, but the dmvs don’t even know. Just ask someone who works there and see, you will get 10 different answers from 10 different associates.

As mentioned earlier, if you choose to go with an aftermarket frame, the reputable dealer/builder will provide a legal document that is a certificate of origin that allows you to title is as a special construction vehicle. That should not be confused with using a VIN from one car to a frame from another. I recently looked at a 69 Bronco in SoCal for sale. It was decent and when I questioned whether the frame matched the title the seller began a long story about why it didn't. I walked. So will most if they know that. Part of this education is to remind people before they sink too much into something even if they are not intending to defraud or mislead is that their investment may change if they think about it. That aside, it is still not legal.

The OP admitted in post #3 that he had not done this before, did not know how, and essentially asked for advice. I don’t think it would be fair to anyone to not provide advice which could keep them out of legal trouble....

Slowleak, that's very good point and I think he needs all views.


To others posting here.
I guess no one ever cheats on their taxes or drives over the speed limit either...

Perhaps a different question but on a 50 year old vehicle would any of you buy a bronco that had a salvaged title?

Another question to ask that supports this thread is how everyone views a situation where your early bronco does not have a legible VIN on the frame, or it is completely gone due to rust. The only frame stamped VIN that even has a chance to survive when the frame is really rusty is the one up near the engine. If you have a bronco that you want to save, it is legitimately titled in your name and you pull the body, clean up the frame, and then find that VIN is obliterated due to time and the elements, what do you do in this situation? You could apply for a state issued VIN, or turn in the title to the state and turn it into a trail rig, or part out the bronco, or finish your restoration knowing that the VIN is not on the frame, or do something else like re-stamp it. When a flap disc on a hand grinder goes over the area where the frame VIN is stamped to remove rust scale, is that a form of VIN tampering? If the bronco your grandfather drove every winter in PA through the snow and road salt is now ready for restoration and you find that the VIN is now either incomplete or completely gone due to rust but the frame is otherwise useable, what is everyone's opinion about what is right and wrong?

I expect there will be some who say finish the restoration and do nothing with the frame VIN, but if the vehicle is ever impounded for some reason (stolen then recovered, etc) it most likely will never be turned over to you if they can't verify the legal VIN. Some might say apply for a state issued VIN and continue to enjoy your dad's bronco. Some might suggest you part it out. Then there will be others who say (or think but don't say) to re-stamp the original VIN on what was your grandfather's bronco frame, laws be damned, and keep it alive in his memory.

At the end of the day federal law on VIN tampering is pretty clear, and state laws vary from state to state on how they verify and issue VINs. Just the same, some people have their own opinions based on what the law says and others have opinions based on emotion, passion, or just no care for the law because they want to have a frame VIN match a title for personal reasons or greed. My opinion in the scenario above, just to add to others, is you apply for a state issued VIN and live your life without looking over your shoulder and you still have your grandfather’s bronco.

bigmuddy said:

Perhaps a different question but on a 50 year old vehicle would any of you buy a bronco that had a salvaged title?

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For the right price, in a heartbeat.

Rumcustom said:

When a flap disc on a hand grinder goes over the area where the frame VIN is stamped to remove rust scale, is that a form of VIN tampering? If the bronco your grandfather drove every winter in PA through the snow and road salt is now ready for restoration and you find that the VIN is now either incomplete or completely gone due to rust but the frame is otherwise useable, what is everyone's opinion about what is right and wrong?

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According to the U.S. Code, it is ok to remove a vin if reasonably necessary during a repair, but only if you follow applicable state laws. So, you can’t just grind it off and say “I ground it off cause it was rusty”. It’s removal has to be addressed In compliance with state law to be legal.

Some states will allow a restorer to use the original VIN. I expect that requires an inspection before the work is done.
It’s probably a lot more complicated if you show the DMV a stripped frame and a title and say “I need this vin assigned to this frame”. Especially if you just ran a flap disc over it.

I faced the same issue repairing one that I knew it was going to remove the VIN. I proactively took it to DMV prior to the work so I could get their directive. They told me what I already knew. " we can inspect it now but once you remove the VIN, you will have to have it re-inspected and apply for a state reconstructed VIN as the ID is no longer there.". I also had another that had both VIN on the frame and on the body but had a State issued VIN and title. That one is now in process of getting a bonded title so it can re-use the original VIN as nobody could tell me why the state issued a new number. In both cases I made sure that whatever I did was compliant so at least the legal aspects did not interfere. I would not put money into something that was in question. Both of these still have some loss of value as there is a title branding of some sort but at least they are known.