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351w vs 5.0 coyote

buckn67

Jr. Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
81
Loc.
Brewton, AL
I know it has probably been discussed, but i can't find the thread.
for the money which is the better dependable to horse power swap?
 

broncnaz

Bronco Guru
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
24,341
No brainer the 351 is it. The coyote may have numbers but they are just numbers and the one number left out is overall cost as not only does the engine cost you the transmission and all the other stuff needed to make it work will cost you big $$. Also my take on it is that the coyote will end up being less relieable due to its overall design to attain the numbers. A 5.0 is still a 5.0 it will have less lowend torque than a 351W.
 

Gator809

Jr. Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Messages
91
Loc.
A small town
The coyote has a modular bellhousing, so it can't use a stock bellhousing. However if you are going to swap in a different transmission, the cost will be the same as a 351. And if you have a c4, you can get a aftermarket bellhousing to mate it to a mod motor.

The coyote is a brand new motor, with a warranty from ford. If you getting a 302 or a 351 you are getting a reman motor since ford hasn't made a new block for about a decade.

Stock bronco 302 vs coyote the coyote has more hp an tourque from idle to max rpm. Stock truck 351 vs coyote, the 351 has more low end, but the coyote has hp. A stock coyote in some cases has double the power of a stock bronco 302. DOUBLE!

You start modifying the 302 an 351 then everything goes out the window as the variables are too great. And you can mod the coyote too. There are stroker kits to make it a 351 too.

The coyote is a real value in power, weight (it is as light as a similar dress 302, lighter than a 351) and modern drive ability. If you do an honest assessment of buying a crate 302 or 351 and making it efi, and compare it to a coyote and harness I bet it's very even in price.

Hank
 

Nightstick

Bronco guy
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
2,929
Here's a link to the thread I have about a 351 I rebuilt and had dyno'd friday. The dyno numbers sheet is on the last page. You can see that the torque curve is pretty steady throughout the measured range. The cam is meant for low end torque. I have almost as much in it as a coyote, but the rest of the drivetrain is simple swap stuff over the coyote, so in theory I would spend less on the other stuff. I say "in theory" because I opted for an Atlas, which bumped up the cost just a tiny bit ;)

Bottom line is the stock bronco 302s were rated at 125hp and 220lb-ft of torque. You lose a lot by putting big tires and 4wd on it, but you lose it whether you're starting with 125hp or 300hp. Give me 300hp to start with and I'd be happy. I say stick with the old school stuff...
 

Nightstick

Bronco guy
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
2,929
What do most people bore out the 351w to 406,408? How would those compared to the coyote?

It's not the bore that has a dramatic effect on displacement, it's the stroke. 351 stroker kits usually go to 393 or 408.
 

bronconut73

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
9,916
Bang for the buck is an easy win for the Windsor. The Coyote is cool but I think we're still a few years from it being an economic alternative. But again, the Coyote "cool factor" is a big consideration and of course it is bound to get better mileage than a built Windsor (fuel injected or not).
 

OX1

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
3,458
No brainer the 351 is it. The coyote may have numbers but they are just numbers and the one number left out is overall cost as not only does the engine cost you the transmission and all the other stuff needed to make it work will cost you big $$. Also my take on it is that the coyote will end up being less relieable due to its overall design to attain the numbers. A 5.0 is still a 5.0 it will have less lowend torque than a 351W.

Not sure about that. A stock 80/90's 5.0 will take maybe 400HP for a while, while a new 5.0 can be waranteed up through 100K @ 400HP?
 

Gator809

Jr. Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Messages
91
Loc.
A small town
Most racers start using ARP studs and main girdles at the 500hp mark on a Windsor block because the block is the weak point in splitting down the lifter valley.

Most engine builders say with the exception of the powered metal rods, the coyote can handle 1000hp.

The coyote with its factory windage and oil control, and piston cooling jets will make a great off road engine because of being able to take off camber better and not lose lubrication.

Not to say there isn't a lot more complexity to the coyote, there is, but it is a very new motor with a lot of technology. When the 5.0 was first introduced, with EFI, it was meet with a lot if caution. Now a days it is the norm to swap that EFI onto older 302s.

I think once the coyote has had enough time to "prove" itself, it will be a very serious choice for engine swaps.

Hank
 

broncnaz

Bronco Guru
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
24,341
Not sure about that. A stock 80/90's 5.0 will take maybe 400HP for a while, while a new 5.0 can be waranteed up through 100K @ 400HP?

Well we were talking about a 351w and really not many people are going to run the coyote at 6200 rpm to hit that 400 hp level for 100,000 miles and expect it to live. Actually ford racing only warrentees them for 2 years. If you look at dyno charts that coyote really kinda has poor lowend numbers its not until the top end where you see power.
Build a mild 300hp 351 and you'll be much happier and its a whole lot cheaper doesnt cost much to get 300 hp out of a 351.
Got to look at the whole coyote package there are more things to fail in the 5.0. aside from that I really dont se the power numbers being all that attractive.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,835
Is the Coyote hard to tune?

As soon as we find someone who has done it we will let you know.

Really this is an apples to oranges comparison.

The 351 is an easy to bolt in engine. It can be poked and stroked into big cubes. Add some good heads and cam and it will make big power. The swap has been going on for 40+ years.

The coyote is a modern engine. It is not a drop in. So far most of the swaps I have heard about also include an aftermarket frame that has the rails spread far enough apart for the coyote to fit. The engine alone is usually more then the complete 351 swap with a built engine. As far as tuning it, start with simply getting it running. Thankfully there is a ton of support. For Motorsport may have the stand alone harness/computer out by now. Last I checked it was "coming soon" but that was a while ago.

We have not even got to the motor mounts, bellhousing, accessory drive, clearance to inner fenders, master cylinder or the dozens of other factors in shoehorning an engine in. Building a vehicle from scratch (Icon comes to mind) you pretty much are starting with a blank slate. Most of us are not starting with that blank of a slate. Nor are our pockets that deep that the coyote is only a small part of the vehicle build.
 

needabronco

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
6,411
Loc.
Prescott/Farmington
When I looked at the cost of a Coyote I determined that it would be cost prohibitive for most people. Given that I looked when if first came out and was pretty much a crate engine only option, I figured the engine and harness/computer would run right at $15,000 plus the cost and time to fab everything in. Now that they can be found in junk yards it's more cost effective. HOWEVER you can build a monster Windsor for less than $5,000 that will still bolt in and run circles around a Coyote for what 99% of Bronco owners use them for. I could care less what the horsepower rating is at 6,000 RPM's, most Bronco engines are used and need max power (torque) from idle to around 2500-3000 RPM's where the Coyote is a dog, just like the older generation of modular engines.

Cool factor yes, cost effectiveness, not so much IMO.
 

SSDDBRONCO

Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,170
Loc.
Los Angeles
As soon as we find someone who has done it we will let you know.

Really this is an apples to oranges comparison.

The 351 is an easy to bolt in engine. It can be poked and stroked into big cubes. Add some good heads and cam and it will make big power. The swap has been going on for 40+ years.

The coyote is a modern engine. It is not a drop in. So far most of the swaps I have heard about also include an aftermarket frame that has the rails spread far enough apart for the coyote to fit. The engine alone is usually more then the complete 351 swap with a built engine. As far as tuning it, start with simply getting it running. Thankfully there is a ton of support. For Motorsport may have the stand alone harness/computer out by now. Last I checked it was "coming soon" but that was a while ago.

We have not even got to the motor mounts, bellhousing, accessory drive, clearance to inner fenders, master cylinder or the dozens of other factors in shoehorning an engine in. Building a vehicle from scratch (Icon comes to mind) you pretty much are starting with a blank slate. Most of us are not starting with that blank of a slate. Nor are our pockets that deep that the coyote is only a small part of the vehicle build.

I know you said "most swaps" but here is one to check out from BC Bronco. He put a coyote in the stock early bronco frame, but really tight fit with the inner fenders. Would be cool to have one just for shits and giggles ;D

http://www.bcbroncos.com/bronco_coyote build.html
 

Sun_and_Steel77

Jr. Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
120
Loc.
Northern BC, Canada
Not sure about that. A stock 80/90's 5.0 will take maybe 400HP for a while

I grew up around more fox body mustangs than I could count running 350-400 flywheel horsepower N/A and a couple boosted. These had the proverbial pi$$ beaten out of them on the street every weekend on the local drag scene for years and took all that could be dished out to them. The 89-93 5.0 is plenty reliable at 400hp. I still see H/C/I modded 5.0's with 250-300KMs on the odometer for sale on the local craigs from time to time.
 

Gator809

Jr. Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Messages
91
Loc.
A small town
A coyote costs about $6200, and the ecm and harness are about $1500
http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com/5_0L_412HP_2011_MUSTANG_CRATE_ENGINE_p/m-6007-m50.htm They've both been available from Ford for over a year now. Google 2011 mustang if you want to see what all tuning and hot rodding you can do to a coyote.

The previous link has a dyno chart for the coyote, it has 100 HP and 250 TQ at 2000 rpm estimated. A stock mustang 5.0 was rated at 205HP and 275TQ PEAK. A slightly warmed up 5.0 dyno charts http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/5-0l-tech/309749-my-bolt-302-dyno-results.html At 200RPM it has less than 100HP and around 200TQ estimated. I don't see the coyote being a dog, and haven driven a new F150 with a coyote(385HP), it isn't.

Chuck at BC BRoncos has put a coyote in a bronco, he said it was a tight fit, but a 1" body lift and slight right fender trimming was all that was needed. http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207256

The ICON bronco uses it own frame for its own reasons, but one of them is so they can claim to have their own "newly designed" frame I bet. Several people have swapped mod motors into broncos without major surgery.

I have looked into building and will be building a bronco with a coyote, and have talked to several people who have done coyote swaps into various vehicles, including broncos. Is it a direct bolt in, no. Is it a fairly easy swap with a few considerations, yes.

If you are looking at doing a efi swap on your motor at time of instal, you will cover a large part of the hard part of the coyote swap.

People have had similar arguments going from horse an buggy to motor car, Flat heads to OHV motors, FE motors to windsor motors, and Carb to EFI. Chose to swap what ever you want and have fun.

Now excuse me, I have to go finish cutting the rear half of the body off my trail bronco off with a sawzall and cutting torch. :eek:

Hank
 

ilovemaui

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Messages
1,651
Loc.
Pacific Moist West
There are +'s and -'s for both. Obviously the 351 is much easier to do because it uses the same motor mounts. A lot of your 302 parts are interchangeable including fox body EFI.

The coyote definitely has the cool factor and cost wise can be comparable to a nice stroker.

Coyote Crate Motor
 

broncnaz

Bronco Guru
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
24,341
Got to love it when people start putting info out that wasnt the OP's orginal question it was 351W vs coyote. All things said the 5.0 coyote is about the same as a old 5.0 at low RPM.
Also the base cost of the engine and wiring harness is just wher it starts then you need everything else. Add in another $2500 for the accessory kit, starter, remote filter, ect and now your at $10K for the engine and havent even considered transmission, tcase or axle gearing yet.
 

Gator809

Jr. Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Messages
91
Loc.
A small town
Well got to love it to clean up a little of the misinformation out there. Yes it was 351w vs coyote, but I couldn't find good dyno data for a stock efi 351 out there so I listed the closest I could find, a 5.0 mustang motor.

I didn't go I to accessories because that is a while bother can of worms, and a lot could depend on what his truck has or he is upgrading. No power steering and keeping it that way, no problem. Upgrading from the stock 30amp alternator to a 3G alternator, it's the same cost for both.

It's real easy to spend a lot on a motor, and even 10k is not too out of line for a fully dressed stock to mild performance motor. I know a man with over 40k in a tractor motor, but his farmall M now makes over 120hp vs the 35hp stock. It's now over 500 CID vs 264 CID stock.

Transmission maybe, but I don't see how the transfercase an axles figure into a engine swap.
 
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