408 build morphing to 427.... Any thoughts?

[Tyla's toy]

It won't be carbed leaning towards fast system ...

408/410 Street Crate
Horsepower: 515 hp
Torque: 500 ft/lbs
Block: Fully Machined and Prepped Production 351W Block
Crankshaft: Eagle Cast Steel
Stroke: 4.000"
Connecting Rods: Eagle I-Beam 6.200"
Pistons: Mahle Forged 4.030-4.040
Timing Chain: Ford Motorsport Double Roller
Camshaft: Comp Cams Custom Hydraulic Roller
Lifters: Ford Motorsport Hydraulic Roller
Cylinder Heads: CNC Brodix KC 195 or AFR 185
Valves: Manley 2.02/1.6
Rocker Arms: Scorpion 1.6 Roller
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM
Waterpump: Edelbrock Aluminum
Carburetor: Quick Fuel 780cfm
Valve Covers: Keith Craft Logo w/Breather
Wire Looms: Smoothie
Oil Pump: Melling High Volume
Oil Pan: Production Syle Replacement
Balancer: Pioneer
Ignition: MSD Distributor w/Keith Craft Logo Moroso Plug Wires
Gaskets: Felpro
Fasteners: ARP
Oil: 1 Case Joe Gibbs Hot Rod
Compression: 10:1
Fuel: Premium Unleaded Only
Firing Order: 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Timing: 35 Degrees @ Full Advance
Oil: 10w-30 or 15w-50 Joe Gibbs Hot Rod
Max RPM: 6250
Dyno: Full Test and Tune on SF902 Dyno

 

[rockg]

Seems legit...thats a good looking christmas list. Hope it goes as planned.

 

[Tyla's toy]

Wondering about the cast crank. Brodix v. Afr? Eagle v. Scat?

 

[74strokerbronco]

I would go milodon aluminum hv water pump almost a 100$ cheaper and a better product in my opinion, and if your going to sink that type of coin , for a few hundred more I would upgrade the crank to forged and have peace of mind. Why not the kc 210 heads after all your feeding some cubes not a 351. Which production block early or late model. I will point out the mahle 408 pistons for 6.2 rods only come in 1.30 compression height which means your deck will have to be a true 9.5 inches for zero deck, if you have to machine the deck any to make it flat and true you will have the pistons sticking out the holes, not a real issue but something to be aware of because it may limit your head gasket choices, meaning thicker than the standard .039-.041. gaskets such as cometics mls which are available in many thicknesses but run more money.

 

[Tyla's toy]

I would go milodon aluminum hv water pump almost a 100$ cheaper and a better product in my opinion, and if your going to sink that type of coin , for a few hundred more I would upgrade the crank to forged and have peace of mind. Why not the kc 210 heads after all your feeding some cubes not a 351.

This is the type of feedback I need thanks

 

[bmc69]

About what RPM are the torque and HP expected to be peaking?

 

[00gyrhed]

you dont list the cam specs but to get 500 HP out of the 408 you are going to make it at an RPM where you will likely not ever drive it. My 393 made 400 with a really high lift and very short duration camshaft, and it made the peak at 4800 RPM. It has more low end grunt and accelerates quicker that a cam that would make the additional 100 HP. I caught a lot of greif from people for building such an animal, the tuner said I was crazy, but he then in the same breath said its really fun to drive. He also comment that it will easily pick the front wheels off the ground.

My point is If you are not going to drag race this thing will you ever see over 5000 RPM? My WOT shifts are set at 4800 and it runs through the gears quick. And I dont know about you or your gearing but 5000 RPM in OD in my bronco would be over 150MPH in 3rd would still be over 100 MPH. I have a 700R4, 4.30 GR, and 33" tires.

Myself, I wont ever need to go that fast in the brick from hell. My current set up will accelerate faster than I have suspension for. The rear springs wrap and the front gets so light its easy to loose steering. And thats with a part throttle application. I have yet to go WOT from a dead stop. Not sure I wont scatter something.

Just something to consider. I would rather have an engine that makes enough HP at 5000 rpm but makes tons of torque right off idle.

 

[74strokerbronco]

the largest factor for where peak hp and torque will be is the choice in heads first and cam second. 408 inches with heads flowing in 280 cfm range at .600 lift will peak around 5500 rpm and torque will be around 450 ft at 2000 /500 ft at 2500 and staying flat to around 4500 with peak tq at around 4k using a mild hdr roller around 280-290 adv 226-234 at .050 and lifts around .575 this is based on a decent dual plane such as the rpm and a 750 cfm carb . of note is torque at 1500 is still around 350 ft so would work excellent in a auto setup even with a stock converter. based on engine analyzer pro 3.7 and afr 185 head data. dam forgot to list the peak hp number before I closed the analyzer . I can run it again if you would like.

I've planted 600 ft and 650+hp from a dead stop with 3200 stall on dry pavement with a full spool rear and 36" tsl swampers in 2 high many times with no scatter but then again the tires break loose hard .

 

[Tyla's toy]

you dont list the cam specs but to get 500 HP out of the 408 you are going to make it at an RPM where you will likely not ever drive it. My 393 made 400 with a really high lift and very short duration camshaft, and it made the peak at 4800 RPM. It has more low end grunt and accelerates quicker that a cam that would make the additional 100 HP. I caught a lot of greif from people for building such an animal, the tuner said I was crazy, but he then in the same breath said its really fun to drive. He also comment that it will easily pick the front wheels off the ground.

My point is If you are not going to drag race this thing will you ever see over 5000 RPM? My WOT shifts are set at 4800 and it runs through the gears quick. And I dont know about you or your gearing but 5000 RPM in OD in my bronco would be over 150MPH in 3rd would still be over 100 MPH. I have a 700R4, 4.30 GR, and 33" tires.

Myself, I wont ever need to go that fast in the brick from hell. My current set up will accelerate faster than I have suspension for. The rear springs wrap and the front gets so light its easy to loose steering. And thats with a part throttle application. I have yet to go WOT from a dead stop. Not sure I wont scatter something.

Just something to consider. I would rather have an engine that makes enough HP at 5000 rpm but makes tons of torque right off idle.

I would agree. they just built this for another bronco guy. His ended up being more in the 560/560 range I believe. I emailed him and am awaiting his responses. He said he will send the dyno sheets as well.

my set up will be 38" 5.13 and probably aod w/ 4r70w guts (still up in the air) I will finalize that when the engine is defined.

 

[Tyla's toy]

Round two of discussions ... still leaning towards fast system

408 Street/Performance Crate
•
Horsepower: 550 hp

•
Torque: 550 ft/lbs

•
Block: Fully Machined and Prepped Production 351W Block

•
Crankshaft: Eagle 4340 Steel

•
Stroke: 4.000" or 4.100"

•
Connecting Rods: Eagle H-Beam 6.200"

•
Pistons: Mahle Forged 4.030-4.040

•
Timing Chain: Ford Motorsport Double Roller

•
Camshaft: Comp Cams Custom Hydraulic Roller

•
Lifters: Ford Motorsport Hydraulic Roller 236/242 @.050 with a 576 lift

•
Cylinder Heads: CNC AFR 205

•
Valves: SI 2.08/1.6

•
Rocker Arms: Scorpion 1.6 Roller

•
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap Port Matched

•
Waterpump: Edelbrock Aluminum

•
Carburetor: Quick Fuel 780cfm

•
Valve Covers: Keith Craft Logo w/Breather

•
Wire Looms: Smoothie

•
Oil Pump: Melling High Volume

•
Oil Pan: Moroso Rear Sump

•
Balancer: Pioneer SFI

•
Ignition: MSD Distributor w/Keith Craft Logo Moroso Plug Wires

•
Gaskets: Felpro

•
Fasteners: ARP

•
Oil: 1 Case Joe Gibbs Hot Rod

•
Compression: 10:1

•
Fuel: Premium Unleaded Only

•
Firing Order: 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

•
Timing: 35 Degrees @ Full Advance

•
Oil: 10w-30 or 15w-50 Joe Gibbs Hot Rod

•
Max RPM: 6250

 

[Tyla's toy]

I will be running a 4r70w from bronco hut similar to the "ginger" trans. my gearing will be 5.13 with 37-38" tires thanks for the input!

 

[74strokerbronco]

that should be a good strong runner, to bad it's crate motor cuz there are a few things I would change or adjust some but nothing major. depending on the cam I might opt for more static compression to boost tq and hp both some while still being able to run 92 octane. i'm running 11.77 static and with a solid roller cam with a intake 0f 296 degrees from .015-.015 tappet lift my dcr or dynamic compression is 8.33 which (not tried)should run on 92 along with some other tricks to stop detonation. anything less than a dcr of 8.0 on aluminum heads should be ok with 92.

 

[gray gables]

no offense on this, but why do you need a 500hp bronco when you live on the vineyard? I've been there, not to much area to wheel over there I think, just curious that's all. I've been watching your posts on this build and sounds like your building a sweet rig with no budget,

 

[airbur]

Why go to all this effort and not have them build a 427?

 

[74strokerbronco]

from a builders point the 408 is less work and issues if were talking 4.030 bore builds rather then 4.155 aftermarket block builds. 4.030 bore builds need over 4.10 inch of stroke to get 425+ inches and you start running into rod/block/cam clearance issues and it makes the motor over square meaning more stroke then bore which is great for torque but not so much for a quick accelerating rotating assemblys. the rod ratio is also better with a 408 and overall rotating mass/bob weight is usually less with the 408 builds. but it's just my person opinion to prefer the 408w over a 427w in less we start talking 4.155 bore 427w builds lol

 

[airbur]

Lol....I'm very familiar with the challenges. But in reality, they are trivial. A pro built 427 is every bit as reliable as a 408.

Question still stands for Tyla.

 

[74strokerbronco]

my guess why 408 rather than 427 when talking kc built crates is 1500$$ and only gain 15hp and 15 tq and this extra 1500$ is because there using the 4.125 bore blocks rather then a production block.

 

[Tyla's toy]

no offense on this, but why do you need a 500hp bronco when you live on the vineyard? I've been there, not to much area to wheel over there I think, just curious that's all. I've been watching your posts on this build and sounds like your building a sweet rig with no budget,

You're right thanks for mentioning that. You saved me a lot of money! I'm going to go 6cyl.

Just kidding, primarily because I can, but also because I'm only building this once and want it bad ass. There is a budget $100k. I feel I will have to leave a few things out but will be able to fit most of my wants in.

 

[Tyla's toy]

my guess why 408 rather than 427 when talking kc built crates is 1500$$ and only gain 15hp and 15 tq and this extra 1500$ is because there using the 4.125 bore blocks rather then a production block.

We may still end up 427 the cost upgrade is really zero and it would move from production block to a dart.

 

[gray gables]

100k on a bronco? I can find other things to spend a 100k on, going to be a sweet build. why don't you build a all aluminum 427 block?