'73 EB Won't Start!!!! HELP!!! I Think I've Tried Everything but I Hope Not!

[Bigbeardbiii]

Hi guys,
I checked numerous posts relative to starting issues, timing gears & chain, dizzy's,, ignition issues, starter solenoid, etc... but found nothing to answer my issues so here goes: It had been sitting since '97. Put new rear tank,, fuel sending unit & gauge & fuel pump on, put a little gas in carburetor, new battery & it cranked right up. The points burned up. Put new points in but one of the hold down screw holes was stripped so, put a washer in with new points (they stayed in place but were a little loose. Next, New Master & wheel cylinders, stainless brake lines, hoses, new tires, & a 4 row racing radiator. Ran like a champ for several weeks then, shortly after cranking up I descended down a small incline in a driveway & it stalled. Put in neutral & cranked right back up & ran solid & smooth on the next 10 miles. Stopped @ a red light & went dead again, neutral & cranked right up & got me home. Next day, it cranked right up & after driving 5+/- miles it began to stall & steam was coming from engine bay. Opened the hood & the top radiator hose was collapsed. At this point I ordered a new distributor & top radiator hose because I knew the loose points were an issue. Replaced the distributor & hose, got it as close to TDC as possible (the only marks I could find on my original harmonic balancer was "ATC" & about an inch away what looked like a "10"(?)). I drove it 65-75 mph at times going to parts store to get a timing light. After returning home & trying to exact the timing, I drove it around neighborhood 10+x's (after moving 1/16" to 1/8" to either side). During which point it suddenly wouldn't crank at all. Thinking it was out of gas I put around 2 gallons in from my gas can & drove (sputtering all the way) to the store & it only held 9 gallons (13 gallon rear tank ONLY) so, obviously it wasn't out of gas). Got it back home & it was sluggish all the way but made it. Since then, it wouldn't stay cranked. Sometimes when slightly adjusting the distributor to either side it would stay cranked once out of 50 or so times for about 10 seconds & then go dead. Since that point, I have replaced the following: 1. Plugs (NO DIFFERENCE), 2. plug wires (NO DIFFERENCE), 3. distributor cap (NO DIFFERENCE), 4. rotor button (NO DIFFERENCE), 5. oil pressure gauge, 6. starter solenoid, 7. ignition (what a bi*ch putting that & the bezel back in), 8. carburetor (Guaranteed Carburetors)(NO DIFFERENCE), 9. the external aftermarket clear plastic fuel filter's paper filter on the inside was floating around so , I replaced it (NO DIFFERENCE), 10. replaced the factory fuel filter (brass tube) that connects to the carburetor (was literally full of brown rusty metal particles)(NO DIFFERENCE), & 11. finally heavy duty (racing) timing gears & chain (NO DIFFERENCE)!!!!!! Today, I pulled the LH valve cover & while a buddy would turn the ignition I checked the valves & all are in working order going up & down 1/4"-1/2"! I absolutely have NO IDEA what to do next & neither does any of the 5-6 guys that have been in & out throughout the debacle!!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE ASSIST ME WITH THIS MYSTERY!!!... To recap, after putting new distributor on it ran 65-75 mph but would sputter on initial acceleration, then began getting worse & finally will only turn over but will not crank & idle. I have replaced everything I know to that would have anything to do with starting & idling & it will turn over but will NOT run @ all (even with putting gas or Seafoam directly into carburetor)! Any assistance would be GREATLY appreciated before I go broke with nothing to show for it!

 

[Sporto]

Let's go to basics on this. It is an engine (and a simple one at that) so it boils down to several things...Timing, Spark, Fuel.

It sounds like you're getting fuel so we should investigate spark and timing.

Do you have spark? This may be redundant to you, but I am going to the basics on this. Checking for spark is easily done with a timing light, or better yet a spark tester light. You can even use a screwdriver in the spark plug wire boot and hold it about 1/2" away from a ground to see if there is an arc or not when cranking. All of these would take two people or a remote starter switch to do.

Spark Yes?
Check timing...There are two types of timing, valve and ignition. Starting with valve...We need to determine true top dead center. You can do this easily by removing the #1 sparkplug and inserting a shop rag into the hole. Stuff it in there far enough to create a seal. Then bump the starter a few times until the #1 piston comes up to the top of it's compression stroke. The rag will make a loud pop if the valves are timed properly (which the should be, since I am assuming you put the timing chain in properly). When the rag pops out, you are at TDC. You can then verify your distributor location. The rotor should be under the #1 wire on the cap, and the rest of the wires in the proper order counter clockwise on the cap. The firing order for the older 302 is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, so if you're at TDC, you can mark the balance at the pointer and check the wire/rotor location, sometimes you can be a tooth off or more. This has always worked for me when trying to stab the distributor. If you're suspicious of valve timing, check the rockers for the #1 cylinder when you are at TDC. They should wiggle a bit, as there is no pressure on them from the cam at this point, as they are both closed to allow compression in the chamber.

Suggestions...Unless you are truly set on having an original Bronco, I would take a look at installing a Duraspark II ignition. Sourcing the parts and installing it is really easy, and it will eliminate any potential issues that the points and condenser may cause. It is a Ford system so you're not going too far away from what you have now, and the parts are readily available at any auto store.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.

Rich

 

[70_Steve]

Sporto has the right idea. An engine needs 3 things to run. Air, fuel(at something close to the right ratio) and spark (at something close to the right time).

You can almost make an assumption that when the starter spins the engine, the engine will be sucking air through the carburetor. But since you replaced the timing chain, it might not be a bad idea to check... You could verify this by having someone try to start the motor (or use a remote starter push-button) and either hook a vacuum gauge to the intake manifold, or, for lack of a vacuum gauge, place your hand over the carburetor and feel for the vacuum.

If the engine is drawing air through the carburetor, then you're missing either spark or fuel. A quick check to see if there really is gas in the carb would be to look down the throat of the carb and actuate the throttle linkage. You should see a squirt of gas out of some nozzles. If so, this lets you know you have gas in the carb. If not, investigate the fuel pump, and the rest of the fuel system. Another option is to use some starting fluid. I keep a can on the shelf for just such troubleshooting. A short spray of starting fluid in the air cleaner or at the carb, then trying to start, will usually let you know if you're missing fuel.

Sporto mentioned several ways to check for spark. I have a pretty decent timing light that I have used, and it works well, even with the engine just spinning with the starter and not starting. You can even set the timing pretty close. Or you could ask one of those 5-6 buddies to hold one end of one of the spark plug wires and lean up against the Bronco while you try to start it. If you hear a yell, you've got spark!!

Also, considering you've had everything apart. it may not be a bad idea to verify the new distributor installation. You wouldn't be the first guy to have installed a distributor 180° out. Sporto mentioned a couple ways to verify that when the timing pointer is pointing to TDC (ATC?) it really is TDC on the compression stroke.

Good luck.

 

[half cab]

I don't know a whole lot but I do know that if you run a motor very much or very far out of time it is not good at all on the motor n can cause serious problems!

 

[67RT]

Sporto has the right idea. An engine needs 3 things to run. Air, fuel(at something close to the right ratio) and spark (at something close to the right time).

You can almost make an assumption that when the starter spins the engine, the engine will be sucking air through the carburetor. But since you replaced the timing chain, it might not be a bad idea to check... You could verify this by having someone try to start the motor (or use a remote starter push-button) and either hook a vacuum gauge to the intake manifold, or, for lack of a vacuum gauge, place your hand over the carburetor and feel for the vacuum.

If the engine is drawing air through the carburetor, then you're missing either spark or fuel. A quick check to see if there really is gas in the carb would be to look down the throat of the carb and actuate the throttle linkage. You should see a squirt of gas out of some nozzles. If so, this lets you know you have gas in the carb. If not, investigate the fuel pump, and the rest of the fuel system. Another option is to use some starting fluid. I keep a can on the shelf for just such troubleshooting. A short spray of starting fluid in the air cleaner or at the carb, then trying to start, will usually let you know if you're missing fuel.

Sporto mentioned several ways to check for spark. I have a pretty decent timing light that I have used, and it works well, even with the engine just spinning with the starter and not starting. You can even set the timing pretty close. Or you could ask one of those 5-6 buddies to hold one end of one of the spark plug wires and lean up against the Bronco while you try to start it. If you hear a yell, you've got spark!!

Also, considering you've had everything apart. it may not be a bad idea to verify the new distributor installation. You wouldn't be the first guy to have installed a distributor 180° out. Sporto mentioned a couple ways to verify that when the timing pointer is pointing to TDC (ATC?) it really is TDC on the compression stroke.

Good luck.

Good info, but car will not run 180 out. Will backfire thru carb.

Is there a chance even though u put on new carb that since u left the nasty gas filter the needle and seat is clogged. Do u have any fuel coming out of the bowl vent and onto the manifold when u crank?
Pull some plugs to make sure not fouled.
What kind of distributor did you put in? If points why did your old points burn so fast? Maybe bad ground or short somewhere in circuit? Check for rigged wires between distributor, ignition, starter, etc.

 

[Sporto]

Great point 70_Steve, I was not thinking air or vacuum. That could really cause a lot of odd running issues if that were the problem. Makes sense too, if he had the intake off for any reason, and it is not sealing properly, the whole thing could be getting TOO much air...

Wow...If it is not that, it has to be the ignition (either timing or failure due to points).

I am anxious to see what the OP comes back and says.

 

[DirtDonk]

When I check for the timing chain, I always use the distributor rotor spinning or not as the indicator. If you use vacuum, unless you have a calibrated hand then it could lead to assumptions. After all, there will almost always be some valves open and some closed, and some partially open. The cylinders with partially open valves should still develop a vacuum signal.
Not sure how much, but it could be there and misleading.

Paul

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

Sporto, Had already check the spark by both a screwdriver to the #1 plug. Also, checked TDC by blowing the rag out of #1 plug hole. Both are spot on (e.g., spark, yes & when rag blows out rotor button is directly under #1 plug wire. I have not looked into the Duraspark II ignition you spoke of due to the LOAD of $ I have already sank in after purchase when there wasn't any issues upon purchase except needing a starter solenoid until the sputtering began & then went to not even being able to get it to idle. Upon reviewing my initial post, you can see that I have replaced almost everything I can imagine that deals with fuel, spark, & timing. Therefore, I have to think that it must be a wire or possibly a vacuum line. Therefore, today I purchased the valve gasket that was ruined when I removed the LH valve cover yesterday as well as I also purchased two new vacuum lines from the dizzy to the carb as they were not snug on the carb. end. I plan to put those items on either tonight or tomorrow. I have a couple of my mechanic friends coming over Thursday to assist with anything else we can come up with to try.... Honestly, I am as close to being absolutely flabbergasted & amazed that how it ran so nice & then nothing. Reminder, after changing each of the aforementioned items in my original post the starting issue has not gotten any better (except in the beginning when I replaced the starter solenoid (that kept the battery from going dead & the points from burning up).

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

70_Steve,
We did check the air in the carb. along the way after replacing each part but don't know that we did after chain & gears (had it along the way but will check on Thursday). There is gas going into the carb. as I originally stated we even poured gas & Seafoam at different intervals along the way into the carb. & did NOT improve starting scenario. Further, we've tested the brand new spark plugs & wires and there is spark as well as solid blue arc in points while turning key. Lastly, we have checked the TDC numerous times. It would appear CLOSE to the #1 plug wire with new distributor but did not get directly on it until install of new timing chain & gears. Blew rag out of #1 plug hole several times since install & it is dead on. Just about out of ideas!

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

67RT,
We replaced the brass fuel filter & the secondary aftermarket before placing the new carb. in so, there shouldn't be any particle issues in the new carb. I put in a standard (factory style) dizzy on it. The reason the original points burned up was due to the starter solenoid being bad. Upon replacing it, the battery no longer goes dead, the "ALT" gauge on dash does not fluctuate when in off position & there's a constant blue arc in the points when turning the key to start. Any other ideas?

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

DirtDonk,
I apologize but I didn't understand your post (i.e., what should I try)?

 

[DirtDonk]

If you're getting spark to the plugs, then my test is not needed. But what I was saying is that when you remove the distributor cap and crank the engine, you can see the rotor move.
If it's moving when you crank, then the timing chain is intact. If the rotor is not spinning with the engine however, it means that either the chain is broken, the roll pin holding the gear to the distributor shaft is sheared off, or the gear itself is destroyed.
Any of those scenarios will end with a non-running engine.

What I don't like to hear though, is that you have a big blue spark at the points each time you turn on the key. This is wrong and will lead to another set of burned out points. Sparks at the points should be minimal, and most of that is absorbed by the capacitor/condenser/thingy attached to them. Seems something is still amiss.
At least as far as I can think it through anyway. Sounds like you've done just about everything.

Another question I have is the routing of the vacuum hoses. If you're using the dual-diaphragm type setup, you need to have the hoses routed through their control devices first. NOT directly to the distributor from the carburetor.
If routed directly, then you should only use the one hose from the ported vacuum source (usually the highest port on the carb) to the front hose fitting on the vacuum diaphragm. Leave the rear one unused and cap it if you have any of those rubber caps.

After this you'll have to reset the timing of course, but that's pretty easy at this point since you're getting very familiar with all of this stuff!

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh, and I hate to say it about our beloved truck-of-choice, but this whole "running great one day, not at all the next" thing, is way too common.
Usually crappy wiring is a culprit high on the list of culprits, as you were thinking. Unfortunately it's not the only one on our 40+ year old rigs. Just one of the more common ones.

Good luck.

Paul

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

Paul,
So, if the two vacuum hoses don't go directly from the dizzy to the carb. then what's in between? When I replaced the original dizzy was a two port so, I replaced with the same. I put the lines in exactly the same locations on both the dizzy & the carb,. (i.e., the front most on the dizzy went to the RH side of carb. & top line from dizzy went to the front of carb. That's how it was set-up initially & ran fine. Thanks, Dean

 

[Rustytruck]

This is a beginners question. Please forgive me but I have to ask.

You do know #1 plug starts at the front passengers side spark plug and staying on that side runs 1,2,3,4 and the drivers side front plug is 5,going up to 6, 7, 8 in the back? People cross this up allot if familiar working on Chevys.

There are 2 different firing orders. and if someone changed the cam from the factory cam you could have the more modern firing order.

http://classictrucks.net/small-block-ford-firing-order/

 

[DJs74]

For what it's worth... The distributor rotates CCW, so the ignition wires / firing order also needs to be CCW.
You have spark to the plugs but how about "through the plugs", plugs new and in good shape and correct for your engine?

Are you getting even the slightest "fire" or "backfire" or any indication of life at all.

With what all has been mentioned and checked, your engine should at least cough or puff for you

DJs74

 

[DJs74]

This is a beginners question. Please forgive me but I have to ask.

You do know #1 plug starts at the front passengers side spark plug and staying on that side runs 1,2,3,4 and the drivers side front plug is 5,going up to 6, 7, 8 in the back? People cross this up allot if familiar working on Chevys.

There are 2 different firing orders. and if someone changed the cam from the factory cam you could have the more modern firing order.

http://classictrucks.net/small-block-ford-firing-order/

We are on the same hunt... Just basic firing orders, rotation and cylinder numbering.

DJs74

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

RustyTruck,
Yeah, Got the firing order down. The truck was running nicely until this problem began. When I changed the plugs & wires I put them back exactly as they were.

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

If you're getting spark to the plugs, then my test is not needed. But what I was saying is that when you remove the distributor cap and crank the engine, you can see the rotor move.
If it's moving when you crank, then the timing chain is intact. If the rotor is not spinning with the engine however, it means that either the chain is broken, the roll pin holding the gear to the distributor shaft is sheared off, or the gear itself is destroyed.
Any of those scenarios will end with a non-running engine.

What I don't like to hear though, is that you have a big blue spark at the points each time you turn on the key. This is wrong and will lead to another set of burned out points. Sparks at the points should be minimal, and most of that is absorbed by the capacitor/condenser/thingy attached to them. Seems something is still amiss.
At least as far as I can think it through anyway. Sounds like you've done just about everything.

Another question I have is the routing of the vacuum hoses. If you're using the dual-diaphragm type setup, you need to have the hoses routed through their control devices first. NOT directly to the distributor from the carburetor.
If routed directly, then you should only use the one hose from the ported vacuum source (usually the highest port on the carb) to the front hose fitting on the vacuum diaphragm. Leave the rear one unused and cap it if you have any of those rubber caps.

After this you'll have to reset the timing of course, but that's pretty easy at this point since you're getting very familiar with all of this stuff!

Paul

Paul,
I didn't mean like a BIG blue spark from the points. I was just trying to express that there is a visible blue line of electricity in the points (I may have exaggerated the blue spark due to the fact that's what most people want you to check for in order to make sure they points are firing. My apololgies.

 

[Bigbeardbiii]

FYI, my mechanic buddies are suppose to be here in about 3 hrs. to finally get back to work on Ol' Blue!