• Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!
    If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.

Cam specs

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
Read the spec sheet on the cam that’s in my 347 stroker. Don’t know if it’s permanent, but the block casting indicates it’s a ‘91 5.0. AFR Renegade (?) heads. Can y’all explain what the lift and duration are in fairly simple terms (as in cam specs for dummies).
Thanks for any and all help, suggestions, tips, even ridicule and/or derision. lol

Randy
 

lars

Contributor
Been here awhile
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
3,133
Loc.
NorCal flatlands
Sooo, Randy, what cam is in your engine? Up to a point you can put any cam intended for a small block Ford into any small block Ford engine. Do you know what cam the engine builder used? Hopefully you have at least a manufacturer and part number. The block casting, head type etc are no help in identifying what the builder used.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,208
I'll ask the simple, what specs do you have? Sounds like you have a cam, want to know more about it, but you didn't tell us what it is.

Cam specs for dummies, the more lift, more high RPM power. More duration, more high end power. More high end power, less drivability and less low end power. Fuel economy tends to get worse.
 
OP
OP
Speedrdr

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
For some reason it’s not letting me add the pic of the cam spec sheet. I’ll try again.
Wouldn’t work so I’ll just do it the hard way.
Intake. Exhaust
Valve adjustment Hyd. Hyd
Gross valve lift. .512. .512
Duration
@ .006 tappet lift. 281. 281
Valve timing. OPEN. CLOSE
@ .006. INT: 35.0. BTDC. 66.0. ABDC
EXH: 75.0. BTDC. 26.0. ATDC
Specs are for cam installed @ 106.0 INTAKE CENTER LINE

INTAKE. EXHAUST
duration @ .050 220 220
LOBE LIFT .3200 .3200
Lobe separation 110.0

Randy
 
OP
OP
Speedrdr

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
For some reason it’s not letting me add the pic of the cam spec sheet. I’ll try again.
Wouldn’t work so I’ll just do it the hard way.
Intake. Exhaust
Valve adjustment Hyd. Hyd
Gross valve lift. .512. .512
Duration
@ .006 tappet lift. 281. 281
Valve timing. OPEN. CLOSE
@ .006. INT: 35.0. BTDC. 66.0. ABDC
EXH: 75.0. BTDC. 26.0. ATDC
Specs are for cam installed @ 106.0 INTAKE CENTER LINE

INTAKE. EXHAUST
duration @ .050 220 220
LOBE LIFT .3200 .3200
Lobe separation 110.0

Randy
NOW it let me add the pic.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3763.jpeg
    IMG_3763.jpeg
    150.7 KB · Views: 32
OP
OP
Speedrdr

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
Sooo, Randy, what cam is in your engine? Up to a point you can put any cam intended for a small block Ford into any small block Ford engine. Do you know what cam the engine builder used? Hopefully you have at least a manufacturer and part number. The block casting, head type etc are no help in identifying what the builder used.
@lars, I think my phone is possessed. Kept trying to add a pic of the cam spec sheet and it wouldn’t. Finally got it to upload it. Arrrrrggggghhh

Randy
 

lars

Contributor
Been here awhile
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
3,133
Loc.
NorCal flatlands
Well, Randy, all I can say is mine is bigger. Lol.. The cam in my 408 is a Comp Cams 35-775-8. But the cam I ran in my Explorer 5.0 for almost 20 years was a 35-308-8 which had a little more lift but less duration than yours. And with a bigger lobe separation angle, better for EFI. Can you tell that I'm talking out my a$$ yet? My guess would be that those numbers are entirely reasonable for that displacement and those heads. Should be fun.
 
OP
OP
Speedrdr

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
@lars, thank you for the explanation. Showing the numbers of your 408 and the 5.0 gives me some idea of kinda where my cam grind lies. Good stuff to know, and it also shows how much “education” I’m trying to gain here.
The engine shop that built this knew I wanted an engine that built power starting at off-idle rpm. I do; however, enjoy hearing a bit of lope at idle.

Randy
 

Timmy390

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
5,681
Loc.
Conway, AR
HYDRAULIC ROLLER: Great in street machines. Best power above 3500 but still good torque. Mild rough idle. Largest for stock heads & intake. Needs stall.

I think you need to get your choice of trans and rear gears spot on........

Tim
 

Apogee

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
6,085
When talking cams, and I'm no expert, the three variables that get the most focus would be the following:

1. Intake / Exhaust Lift
2. Intake / Exhaust Duration @ .050" lift
3. Lobe Separation Angle (LSA)

Just for reference, below are a couple of advertised 347 builds along with HP/TQ specs for comparison. Clearly the heads/valves, intake, exhaust, etc will all factor into the equation as well, but things get a bit more complicated if/when you dive into the weeds. One thing to keep in mind though is that the cam lobe lift is multiplied by the rocker arm ratio to get the valve lift, and ultimately the valve lift is what I'm interested in at the end of the day. Common rocker arm ratios for the SBF applications are 1.6:1, 1.65:1 and 1.7:1...so for example, a .333" lobe lift with a 1.6:1 ratio would result in a .533" valve lift.

Blue Print 347 (BP3479CTC) - 415 HP/415 ft-lb torque, 10:1 compression
.543" Intake / .554" Exhaust Lift
218° Intake / 226° Exhaust Duration @ .050"
112° LSA

Ford Performance 347 (M-6007-S347JR2) - 350 HP/400 ft-lb torque, 10.5:1 compression
Comp Cams Magnum 206/206 (35-410-8)
.533" Intake / .533" Exhaust Lift
206° Intake / 206° Exhaust Duration @ .050"
110° LSA

Ford Performance 347 (M-6007-D347SR) - 415 HP/400 ft-lb torque, 10.5:1 compression
Ford M-6250-F303
.528" Intake / .528" Exhaust Lift
226° Intake / 226° Exhaust Duration @ .050"
109° LSA

ATK 347 (HP20C) - 415 HP/ 430 ft-lb torque, 10:1 compression
.512" Intake / .512" Exhaust Lift
220° Intake / 224° Exhaust Duration @ .050"
112° LSA

Say what you might about ATK engines, but I appreciate that they post basic dyno results on their website.
 

73azbronco

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
7,974
Places like comp cams are great for generic get it going, no need for exotics on 99% of what we all do.

However, my 347 has an exotic cam to bleed off it's static 13 to 1 compression down to a manageable dynamic 10 to 1. Uses 87 octane no knock. Ford strokers did it for me. He was a bit secretive, I do have specs, but when I asked what's it mean, I basically got the "do you trust me or not" answer. I did. It works great. I'm clueless on why.
 
OP
OP
Speedrdr

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
Places like comp cams are great for generic get it going, no need for exotics on 99% of what we all do.

However, my 347 has an exotic cam to bleed off it's static 13 to 1 compression down to a manageable dynamic 10 to 1. Uses 87 octane no knock. Ford strokers did it for me. He was a bit secretive, I do have specs, but when I asked what's it mean, I basically got the "do you trust me or not" answer. I did. It works great. I'm clueless on why.
Can’t remember what the compression ratio wound up being. He started talking 12:1 but I wanted to run pump gas. I’ll have to go back and ask, but I’m remembering he was shooting for either 10.5:1 or 11:1. It WILL run on pump gas but doesn’t really like it. Have been adding some octane boost and probably end up getting some AV-gas to mix in.

Randy
 

Apogee

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
6,085
Can’t remember what the compression ratio wound up being. He started talking 12:1 but I wanted to run pump gas. I’ll have to go back and ask, but I’m remembering he was shooting for either 10.5:1 or 11:1. It WILL run on pump gas but doesn’t really like it. Have been adding some octane boost and probably end up getting some AV-gas to mix in.

You don't have a build sheet for the engine from the builder? While there are always exceptions, anything over 10.5:1 can tend to have issues with detonation on pump gas, and I'm talking the 91+ octane option, not the cheaper stuff. There are things you can play with regarding rod ratios and such to help, but that's another conversation assuming your 347 is the standard configuration engine with a 3.400" stroke and a Ø4.030" bore. If you really do want an engine that can run pump gas (without retarding the timing or dumping in octane booster), you might be able to swap over to a thicker head gasket to drop the compression a bit...it's a bit late in the game to run different pistons or heads.
 
OP
OP
Speedrdr

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
Yeah, I did, at one point in time but can’t put my hands on it now. I could possibly go back and ask about it but seriously doubt he keeps copies. His shop and my mind are about equally cluttered.
I do have access to AvGas (110 octane low lead) at a reasonable (?) price that I plan to mix with 87 pump gas. If that gets to be too much bother, I’ll consider changing some of the engine stuff.

Randy
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,265
Can y’all explain what the lift and duration are in fairly simple terms (as in cam specs for dummies).
In case you were still interested in this info, here’s a little camshaft 101. A very basic 101!

There are several design aspects, but the two most often talked about are lift and duration.
They are quite literally the “bragging rights” of camshaft discussions.

In simplest terms, lift is how far the cam lobe opens the valve, and duration is how long it keeps it open.
Generally, speaking, the more of either/both, the higher the performance, and coming at a higher RPM.
Of course, higher RPM is literally part of the definition of horsepower.

Lift is usually described as either valve lift (the bigger number), or lobe lift (the actual height of the lobe itself).
Lobe lift is the only thing that the cam manufacturer has control of. Their listing of valve lift (in your case .512”) is only an assumption, based on the recommended rocker arm ratio. Some cam cards will list that expected ratio.
If the builder/user decides to install a different rocker arm, the actual valve lift can be different.
If the cam card specifies valve lift, it usually specifies the recommended rocker arm ratio as well.
The cam manufacturer can’t know for sure what the builder installs as a rocker arm, but let’s say for example the typical ratio is 1.5 or 1.6 to 1. The cam manufacturer will say .512 valve lift based on that assumption.

The duration is the number of degrees of rotation that the cam lifts the valve off the valve seat.
I can never remember if that’s cam degrees, or crank degrees, but someone here will know.
But we always have to remember that the cam rotates at half the speed of the crank. This mental note is important when setting ignition timing and other things.
The base circle of the lobe is where no upward motion is put on the lifter. The peak of the lobe (or whatever its proper name is) is where maximum lift is reached. Each of these has its own duration, but it’s not listed. It’s up to each cam manufacturer to decide on the overall profile of the lobe.

Your cam is a single pattern cam, where lift and duration are the same for intake and exhaust. A split pattern cam has more lift and/or duration on the exhaust lobe.
This is to compensate for typically smaller exhaust ports when the cam manufacturer thinks that that particular cylinder had design needs it. And testing in the aftermarket, it’s generally considered a slightly higher performance in most situations to have a split pattern cam.

The adjustment section will list how much clearance is recommended at the valve stem tip and rocker arm interface. Measured in thousandths of an inch
That would be on adjustable valvetrain. Yours simply says HYD (for hydraulic), but that is not all the story.
Some hydraulic lifter setups are adjustable, while some are not. They leave that up to you and the installer and the manufacturer of the cylinder heads.

Regarding the bits that say “at .006“ or “at .050“ are because in the old days there was no standardization for measuring.
The .006 is duration (the larger duration number) their way of rating their overall lift, when the valve just starts to open. The .050 rating was brought up, probably in the aftermarket, to reduce the fudge factor when comparing cams from one manufacturer to another.
What they’re talking about is not measuring the duration of the event, until the valve has reached .050 inch off the seat.
This gives some consistency that is otherwise not always available because lobe patterns can very radically from one to another.
And speaking of varying erratically, a flat-tappet lobe ramp profile is limited based on performance and reliability/longevity. A roller cam ramp profile can be much more radical, because the cam follower/lifter’s roller base has the ability to follow a steeper profile. The sharp edge of a lifter flat-tappet lifter can’t do that.

That’s about all I’ve got for now! A lot of basic cam stuff in there, but hopefully you can glean some useful information from it.
 
Last edited:

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,208
Paul, it is crankshaft degrees.

LSA, Lobe Seperation Angle. While you have how much the valve is open (lift) and how long it is open (duration) the LSA gives a reference between the exhaust event and the intake event. Wider has less overlap, tends to clean up idle. Modern emissions grinds tend to run a fairly wide LSA. When it narrows up you get more overlap and that gets you a choppy idle. But just off idle that narrow angle tends to work pretty good. The 'thumper' style cams run narrow to sound cool at the car show and once off idle I hear they run pretty good.

Intake centerline is the orientation of the intake lobe operation to the crankshaft operation. Advancing this tends to help lower the torque curve of a given cam, and retarding it tends to shift the power curve higher. This is the basis of modern (really not that modern, started getting common in new engine designs in the 90s) of variable cam timing. Cam phasers. Not really anything that can be retrofitted to an old school engine (no longer available but they once made a "vari-cam" kit that would change the cam timing based on the drag of the valvetrain and oil pump. It was not computer comtrolled, just a spring. Made setting timing nearly impossible. Wacky 60s/70s item that failed. Oh the history of bad speed parts)

Years ago I was trying to pick my cam based on as much infomation as I could gather. It never ran that good. Next time I called the tech line with Howards Cams and told them what I was doing and what I picked. He said bad idea, use this milder cam instead. This time I listened. He was right, it was the perfect cam for what I described what it was going to be used for.
 
OP
OP
Speedrdr

Speedrdr

Contributor
Not so wise OLD owl
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,449
Loc.
Paris, MS
@DirtDonk and @Broncobowsher, that’s what I was looking for. I’ll read and re-read this thread until I’ve gathered enough understanding to talk some more with the engine builder. This collective knowledge in the forum is indeed vast!! Thanks for putting it in some basic terms for me.

Randy
 
Top