Leveling radius arms

[DirtDonk]

Wow, someone that actually got their alignment numbers before the project started! Great going!
It's much harder without those numbers, so glad you got them.

A steering stabilizer is not going to eliminate shimmy or wobble. That's not what it's there for, but it might help to reduce it some. I use them, but also don't. Depends on what I'm doing, but I've never felt the need to have one and actually ran my '71 without it for about 30,000 miles and could not tell the difference.
But I did not have any shimmy of note either, so not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Looking forward to hearing more about your driving experiences with it.

Paul

 

[CopperBronco]

It’s funny how my Bronco with worn out cracked bushings in almost every ball joint, and front suspension part, with negative caster and toe out drove so smooth and easy… fix it and now it’s got problems , maybe I should stick to the motto, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it! Just worried with the alignment numbers I had that a death wobble might give me a surprise attack one day. I also thought a death wobble starts as a shimmy and then gets worse… sounds like that’s not the case.

 

[broncosam]

I've been following these threads on radius arms and the Bronco lean issue so I looked this stuff up in my Ford shop manual and all it says is to tighten the radius arm cap bolts in a crisscross pattern in pairs. It does not say anything about the issue of Bronco lean. One thing it does say, and I remember this from years ago when working on some of the F150 4x4 trucks I had that had basically the same set up. It says that the arm and the cap are a numbered and matched set to not get them mixed up. And years ago when we built F series trucks at the Ford plant I don't remember them going to any great pains to assemble the front axle assembly. We ran approximately 45-50 units an hour then and you did not have a lot of time to fiddle around with getting things bolted together.

 

[DirtDonk]

It’s funny how my Bronco with worn out cracked bushings in almost every ball joint, and front suspension part, with negative caster and toe out drove so smooth and easy… fix it and now it’s got problems , maybe I should stick to the motto, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it!

Yep, nature of the beast, especially with modern parts. But from that description, it was broke so you needed to fix it. Worn out is worn out, so they needed to be replaced before something broke.
Worn out C-bushings can spit out and leave you with a floppy front end. It's not necessarily dangerous, but it's not nice to drive either. Worn out ball joints don't always cause trouble except annoying wander and maybe noise. But they can wear out tires and eventually break, really leaving you hanging. Along with your knuckle.
Maybe the negative caster and toe-out (toe-out is not a bad thing in and of itself) were masking the other issues.

Just worried with the alignment numbers I had that a death wobble might give me a surprise attack one day. I also thought a death wobble starts as a shimmy and then gets worse… sounds like that’s not the case.

Correct. Out of spec alignment rarely, if ever actually causes Death Wobble. Doesn't happen that way. It can enhance it, or make it come on sooner with different characteristics, but it doesn't cause it. And if loose parts caused it, we'd all have experienced it every time a trackbar bushing or ball joint or tie-rod end wore out.
And the DDW's (dreaded death wobbles) don't always start out as a shimmy. In fact most shimmies are just that and stay that way.
Many (most?) times you get a DW experience it comes on suddenly under specific circumstances and goes right to the change-your-underwear mode.
By "suddenly" though, you might actually feel the beginning and think it's a shimmy but by the time you're thinking that, it's already shaking the steering wheel out of your hands and making you think your whole front end is just about to launch itself out from under your vehicle.

I've been following these threads on radius arms and the Bronco lean issue so I looked this stuff up in my Ford shop manual and all it says is to tighten the radius arm cap bolts in a crisscross pattern in pairs. It does not say anything about the issue of Bronco lean.

That's because it wasn't a thing back then. If they weren't perfect, nobody cared. But also it just did not happen that way like it does now.
The difference? Polyurethane bushings...
Part of the issue is that the rubber bushings used originally were relatively loose and compressible and just did not hold the axle tight like poly does. And if they were crooked they'd just settle themselves into a correct position after a minute of driving.
The much tighter and less forgiving poly bushings do not have close to the same flexibility when it comes to assembly.

Where you put them is where they will stay in most cases. They're made way to tight, way too stiff (in my opinion) and meant to hold those offset positions no matter what the vehicle is going through.
With the torsion bar effect of the radius arms, any tightly held offset is imparted back into the frame just like trailer hitch towing torsion bars do with the load, and cause (or enhance) the lean.
Lots of things cause lean in a sprung vehicle. But now we have to add C-bushings to the mix.

One thing it does say, and I remember this from years ago when working on some of the F150 4x4 trucks I had that had basically the same set up. It says that the arm and the cap are a numbered and matched set to not get them mixed up. And years ago when we built F series trucks at the Ford plant I don't remember them going to any great pains to assemble the front axle assembly.

I remember that too. And in fact we have found some arms with matching stamps. Sometimes dimples, sometimes actual numbers. But by far the more common scenario is no markings at all and you're just left to luck to keep them on the same side.
And as we've also found out over the years, it does not seem to make as much difference as we were warned about. So maybe something still to be paying attention to(?), but not something to worry overmuch about if you don't keep track and get them mixed up.

We ran approximately 45-50 units an hour then and you did not have a lot of time to fiddle around with getting things bolted together.

For sure!
Was this on the Ford assembly line then? Sounds like it, with that many trucks rolling by needing assembly.
Good thing Ford didn't try poly back then!

Paul

 

[broncosam]

Yep, nature of the beast, especially with modern parts. But from that description, it was broke so you needed to fix it. Worn out is worn out, so they needed to be replaced before something broke.
Worn out C-bushings can spit out and leave you with a floppy front end. It's not necessarily dangerous, but it's not nice to drive either. Worn out ball joints don't always cause trouble except annoying wander and maybe noise. But they can wear out tires and eventually break, really leaving you hanging. Along with your knuckle.
Maybe the negative caster and toe-out (toe-out is not a bad thing in and of itself) were masking the other issues.


Correct. Out of spec alignment rarely, if ever actually causes Death Wobble. Doesn't happen that way. It can enhance it, or make it come on sooner with different characteristics, but it doesn't cause it. And if loose parts caused it, we'd all have experienced it every time a trackbar bushing or ball joint or tie-rod end wore out.
And the DDW's (dreaded death wobbles) don't always start out as a shimmy. In fact most shimmies are just that and stay that way.
Many (most?) times you get a DW experience it comes on suddenly under specific circumstances and goes right to the change-your-underwear mode.
By "suddenly" though, you might actually feel the beginning and think it's a shimmy but by the time you're thinking that, it's already shaking the steering wheel out of your hands and making you think your whole front end is just about to launch itself out from under your vehicle.



That's because it wasn't a thing back then. If they weren't perfect, nobody cared. But also it just did not happen that way like it does now.
The difference? Polyurethane bushings...
Part of the issue is that the rubber bushings used originally were relatively loose and compressible and just did not hold the axle tight like poly does. And if they were crooked they'd just settle themselves into a correct position after a minute of driving.
The much tighter and less forgiving poly bushings do not have close to the same flexibility when it comes to assembly.

Where you put them is where they will stay in most cases. They're made way to tight, way too stiff (in my opinion) and meant to hold those offset positions no matter what the vehicle is going through.
With the torsion bar effect of the radius arms, any tightly held offset is imparted back into the frame just like trailer hitch towing torsion bars do with the load, and cause (or enhance) the lean.
Lots of things cause lean in a sprung vehicle. But now we have to add C-bushings to the mix.


I remember that too. And in fact we have found some arms with matching stamps. Sometimes dimples, sometimes actual numbers. But by far the more common scenario is no markings at all and you're just left to luck to keep them on the same side.
And as we've also found out over the years, it does not seem to make as much difference as we were warned about. So maybe something still to be paying attention to(?), but not something to worry overmuch about if you don't keep track and get them mixed up.


For sure!
Was this on the Ford assembly line then? Sounds like it, with that many trucks rolling by needing assembly.
Good thing Ford didn't try poly back then!

Paul

Paul, I've mentioned it many times before, but I worked 32 years in Ford's Louisville Assembly Plant ( LAP ). When I started there in august 1972 the only thing they were building was the full size car, Galaxie, LTD,etc. In 1973 we started building F series pick-up trucks in the other end of the plant that what is now the Kentucky Truck Plant used to reside in. I went down to the other end of the plant to assemble trucks as that is what I wanted to work on. We built F100 -F350 trucks in that plant up until late 1981, at that time they shut down all operations to re-tool to build Rangers and the Bronco II. By the time they fazed the F series trucks out we were running about 45-50 units an hour if I remember well. In the mid 1990's when we were building Explorers we were running about 95 units per hour. You had an Explorer go by your work station about every 45 seconds. I learned a lot about how vehicles are put together during my time there. I tell people all the time, I don't have a lot of confidence when it comes to everyday home handyman repairs, but if I have to I can pretty much do a lot of vehicle repair work, with exceptions. I refuse to try and work on modern engines, brake work, suspension, etc. is okay. But you pop the hood on a late model vehicle and looks like a plumbers nightmare.

 

[DirtDonk]

I hear ya on that!
And thanks for repeating your history for my benefit. I've probably seen you write about it a few times too, but it's hard for me to remember most of that stuff sometimes.
I even went as far as writing on a Post-It note which members were Ford employees so I didn't have to wrack my brain each time. Which of course disappeared just recently!

Thanks for relating your experiences. It's fun to hear even if I've heard it before.

Paul