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Radiator question

Slick

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Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Messages
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Petoskey, MI
Hello again and sorry if this question has been answered before.

But, I’ve got a modded 351w, (roughly 600hp), and am having issues keeping cool.

I can stay “ok” but need to run both, a mechanical fan as well as an electric. Add to that my rad is the BC triple pass copper.

QUESTION:
Are there any bronco specific units that will allow me to cut back to JUST the electric fan? ...if so, what make? And better yet, a link?

All help is appreciated!
 

B RON CO

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Hi, I've recommended Water Wetter before.
Usually 1 bottle is enough. But in my friends Saturday night stock car, 400 HP, and aluminum 4 row radiator, we use 2 bottles.
We don't use a thermostat, we use a big washer with like a 3/4" hole in the thermostat outlet.
Are you using a 180* thermostat?
Good luck
 

Local Boy

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Mililani, Hawaii
It's been my experience...that you really need to look at why it is over heating...or you will find yourself chasing this issue, only to find that no amount of cooling mods will keep it cool... I've been there.... and learned that lesson the hard way...

How much bore? Is it stroked? Timing - initial, total, curve? Stock block or aftermarket? Carb'ed or EFI ?

Stock blocks are prone to heating issues when bored... as the cylinder walls become too thin and loose their heat dissipating characteristics...

How hot is it getting ? and when ? Does it cool when idling or continue to get hotter?

Aloha
 
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Slick

Slick

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I was told it’s a boss mustang block, not bored, carborated and aluminum heads.

Using the shroud, the mechanical fan ALMOST keeps it cool enough, and I rarely use the electric fan. When switching to only the electric, the rig gets too hot slowly, just in mild town driving. Using only the mechanical, it only overheated when driven slow or in traffic.

As far as I know, there are no other “issues” cooling related.
 

Local Boy

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OK, you are not deep into some kind of heat inducing issue... That's good.

People have their preference... some like copper some like aluminum .... so you will get varying opinions on which type is "better"... I've always went with the biggest aluminum Rad I could fit in there...

What size fan (electric) do you have? I run a single electric that works awesome.... I assume you are running the electric in front of the Rad as a pusher, correct?

If you have the room behind the Rad..."pullers" are more efficient...

I'll have to get back home to tell you which one I have...

Aloha
 
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Timmy390

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Wait.....so the 351 boss came out in 71 Stang and they were Clevelands not W's.

What's the history of the engine and how hot is it getting? 210 220 230?

Tim
 

DirtDonk

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Might be a "Boss" block from Ford Racing or something like that. Didn't they have a couple of iterations over the years with Windsor based blocks, as opposed to the original Boss engines?

Just guessing though.
Slick, that's a crap ton of horsepower out of a non-bored 351W engine no matter how you look at it. Is it stroked? Did you measure the power yourself, or go by what was told to you?
Is it carbureted? Does it have a lot of water pump?
And no matter what, how is the timing controlled? If it's running less advance than it could tolerate, it might be running hot just for that reason alone.
A triple pass radiator is VERY good at cooling. Yes, a Griffin is an wicked cool aluminum unit that is likely right up near the top of the heap with several others. But your existing radiator should be able to cool "most" 5.8 based engines.
Unless it's got other issues. In which case you may actually have to go to a really big aluminum unit.
But a standard sized unit might not guarantee you running cooler than you are now.

And on to the rest of the usual twenty-ish questions list regarding "overheating"...
How well is it tuned overall?
What is the timing advance curve set up at?
What ignition system?
What coolant are you running?
How hot EXACTLY is it getting?
When EXACTLY is it running hot?
As asked already too, what thermostat are you running?
What vintage is the block? You might check the numbers just to be sure.
What gear ratio and tire size and transmission are you running?
Did you confirm with some sort of thermometer that your gauge was reading correctly?

You may need to keep both fans. I don't know of a single EB that has EVER run cooler on an electric fan only, when there was already a known hot-running issue. The lower the speed at which heating occurs, the better off you are with the electric sometimes. The higher speed the heat occurs you're usually better off with mechanical.
Most EB's with heating issues are better off with both in my opinion.

So yes, please some more history on your engine and more detail on how your Bronco is set up.

Paul
 

Timmy390

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Might be a "Boss" block from Ford Racing or something like that. Didn't they have a couple of iterations over the years with Windsor based blocks, as opposed to the original Boss engines?

Yes Ford Motorsport did produce some 351W based blocks that used a Ceveland crank as I recall. They came "rough" bored and had to be finished out. Lots of odd things and used for racing vs. the street. Heck I think they were used as NASCAR blocks for a while?

Had to run special heads as I recall. Stock W heads would not work.......

Tim
 
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Slick

Slick

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Okay...

The ignition is a Malory unit, I’m not at-all sure of its timing or stroke etc. I do know it has a roller cam, but not sure of specifics. It is an edldbrock carb, I THINK it’s a 550 double pump. I do NOT know the year of the block or if it was for sure a boss, or if it for SURE came from a mustang, but it IS a Windsor. Tires are 35” gearing is 4:88. The truck has never been to a shop to measure hp, but was told that the build was targeted for it to be 475-600hp going off parts etc; I quote the 600 as a better safe than sorry.

The electric is a pusher, mechanical fan is shrouded by a modified stock shroud, and only gaps roughly an inch at the top and bottom of fan.

I currently have no thermostat, but did run a 180.

I’m not sure what specific water pump I have, but is THAT the easiest way to get an extra bump, ie- more flow?
 
OP
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Slick

Slick

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Petoskey, MI
BTW- my apologies it’s been about a decade since I drove her more than a block or 2 and I’m finally finishing the issue list and actually going to DRIVE the truck!!!

So in short, what foggy idea I had on the specifics are more foggy now. Soooo sadly I’ll be asking about flares, anti sway and extended arms soon! ...maybe even lighting.
 

DirtDonk

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The ignition is a Malory unit, I’m not at-all sure of its timing or stroke etc.

Ok, good. So let's ignore the horsepower potential for the moment and concentrate on the knowns.
You MUST set the ignition timing. Period.
An engine can run hot even if it's a 150hp wheezer, if the timing is retarded. Or perhaps even too far advanced, but being too retarded is a known heat builder.

I do know it has a roller cam, but not sure of specifics.

May or may not be pertinent, but how does it run overall? Lopey idle or smooth? Bogging down when just getting rolling, or strong right from the bottom end of the rpm range?

It is an edldbrock carb, I THINK it’s a 550 double pump.

Could be wrong, but pretty sure there is no such thing as a double-pumper Edelbrock. That's a Holley thing.
But Edelbrock carbs are easily tunable and run very well on the street. Not the most fun off-road, but they do pretty well otherwise.
And 550 is way too small (I believe) for anything coming near 600hp. Maybe the lower end at 475 would work, but not much more I'm thinking.
Here again though, a smaller carb can be great for lower rpm running and idle quality and such, as long as the cam is not too large for it.

I do NOT know the year of the block or if it was for sure a boss, or if it for SURE came from a mustang, but it IS a Windsor.

Ok, good to know stuff. But unfortunately older 351's were well known to run hot when modified, especially with over-boring. But you say as far as you know it's not been bored? That's probably a good thing.

Tires are 35” gearing is 4:88.

This is a pretty good combination for lots of stuff. Should not be an issue in the vehicle running hot due to overloading the engine then.
What transmission are you running?

The truck has never been to a shop to measure hp, but was told that the build was targeted for it to be 475-600hp going off parts etc; I quote the 600 as a better safe than sorry.

Ok, fair enough. But that range is way too wide for anything reasonable to assume in tracking down an issue. There's a TON of stuff needed to add an additional 125hp to an engine with no increase in displacement or induction pressure (turbo/super charging in other words).
For now though, we really don't need to know the exact horsepower it has. But it would be nice to know how it runs otherwise.

Does it run very smooth? Engine is mostly quiet (other than exhaust)? In fact, what exhaust just for our information while we're on these subjects.
You see where this is going though. We need to know it all. Not just that you're running hot. We need to know all about how it runs, feels in your opinion, what other quibbles you might have with it, etc.

The electric is a pusher, mechanical fan is shrouded by a modified stock shroud, and only gaps roughly an inch at the top and bottom of fan.

Sounds good. What type of mechanical fan is it by the way? Some are decent, some are great, and some are next to useless when you're fighting an issue.
Otherwise half-way decent fans for a perfect running engine might actually be next to pitiful for a hot-running setup. In other words, it might be fine for some, but not for all.
An aftermarket aluminum flex fan like the hot-rodders use is a perfect example of this. A factory 18" heavy bladed high pitch fan is an example of a good one. A late model Explorer 5.0 is an example of an amazing mechanical fan.

I currently have no thermostat, but did run a 180.

I would put one back in. Did you remove it because you were trying to figure out the heating issue? While it can help sometimes, if you find it does not, then you should always put the t-stat back in.
In fact, if you were running a 400hp engine I'd say go to the high end and run a 195° thermostat. If you were really running closer to 600hp, through the use of high compression and other tricks, and running the engine hard all the time, maybe the cooler 180 or even the 160 t-stats would be called for.
But in this case, personally I'd run AT LEAST a 180.

I’m not sure what specific water pump I have, but is THAT the easiest way to get an extra bump, ie- more flow?

Yes.
To the more flow part anyway. It's anything but a guarantee of running cooler, but it's a step in the right direction if the other stuff does not pan out. It's been proven time and time again that more pressure inside a cooling jacket is only a good thing. Until it ruptures a radiator that is!
And high flow "can" sometimes equal a bit more pressure. Often just enough to quell the formation of hot spots and steam pockets inside the engine.
But if that's not your issue, it's a waste of time too...
If the pump in use is a known pump and has low miles on it, then I'd do other stuff first like check timing.
If it's an older pump with unknown mileage, you never know if it's worn out or not. The impellers on these things can go through some very strange metamorphosis. Some can last a million miles, and some will go 100k and be literally worn down to the nubs.

I would get a timing light on the thing first and foremost.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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A-ha!!! Been sitting, eh?
Just out of curiosity, was there coolant/water in the system while it was sitting? Or was it dry?
Reason I ask is that you could have additional rust and scale buildup in the block that can impede cooling at least a little bit.
And if the radiator was installed all this time too, there could be deterioration there as well.

The BC radiator should be an excellent unit. Don't know of any complaints that I can remember anyway. Good design and well built from what I remember.
But time can take it's toll. You may need to run through the cooling system with all the usual methods while you're tracking down this issue.

And in all that, I forgot to even ask about things like carburetor jetting and such.
But I would still start with finding out your ignition timing.

Paul
 
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Slick

Slick

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Sorry, I’m not even SURE on the carb size, and obviously wrong about double pump etc.

The steering box is out of it & it’s at my shop, so I’m not too able to go double check things EASILY.

The trans is a ZF. Rad is filled with royal purple coolant. Therm WAS pulled in an attempt to diagnose myself. The overheating issue was the same last year when I drove it, than it was ever. All this in mind it was no worse after sitting. As far as how it runs, at idle, it’s kinda like a horse at gallop/“dahdun-dun, dahdub-dun” under power, it spoils quickly, with a hint of a stutter when DUMPED more throttle... so much so you can drift all 4 tires without much effort. So,overall RUNS well and power and it’s delivery seems fine(& is my only doubt on tune being the culprit for heat).

From what I’m hearing tho, it SOUNDS like:
My rad is fine & not needing to be replaced (yet if ever).

I should check it’s tune.

And look into the water pump?
 
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Slick

Slick

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Orrrr should I add a couple MORE things to the list to help be SURE?

**end goal is to run only the electric fan and not have said fan turn on much ...if that’s realistic?
 

jw0747

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Is your mechanical fan a solid blade or a flex blade? My preference is solid blade fans which pull more air at slower vehicle speeds like in heavy traffic.
 

bronconut73

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For it to make that kind of oats it would be a pretty high compression little beast.
Are you able to run her on 93 octane pump gas with a little advanced timing, without knock & ping?
 
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Slick

Slick

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Petoskey, MI
For it to make that kind of oats it would be a pretty high compression little beast.
Are you able to run her on 93 octane pump gas with a little advanced timing, without knock & ping?

It’s grumpy if you even run 89, but fine on premium
 

DirtDonk

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The trans is a ZF.

Ok, that helps. It means you don't have an automatic trans adding heat to things.
It would not have added directly to the radiator in your case, because pretty sure that type of radiator does not have an integrated trans cooler. But they can still add heat overall.[/QUOTE]

Rad is filled with royal purple coolant.

Good. At least you're working from a slight advantage. Water alone is the best coolant, but not the best all around medium. The Royal Purple should work well I would hope.

Therm WAS pulled in an attempt to diagnose myself.

Since it didn't help, I would put it back in for all the reasons we should run a thermostat.

The overheating issue was the same last year when I drove it, than it was ever.

Which was...?
Reason for the question was to find out just how, when and why it was overheating. Or if it was in fact overheating at all.
Does it do it only in slow traffic? Only in summer? Only on the trail? All the time? When and how?
I know you did give some clues already, but more detail is still appreciated.

All this in mind it was no worse after sitting.

Good to know. At least it's a consistent issue then.

As far as how it runs, at idle, it’s kinda like a horse at gallop/“dahdun-dun, dahdub-dun” under power, it spoils quickly, with a hint of a stutter when DUMPED more throttle... so much so you can drift all 4 tires without much effort. So,overall RUNS well and power and it’s delivery seems fine(& is my only doubt on tune being the culprit for heat).

The stumbles when floored could be ignition and/or carburetor tuning. Sounds like it has power, but maybe could use some fine-tuning still. And yes, that could easily lead to cooler running.
Unfortunately it's never a guarantee, but it's an important first step in ruling stuff out.
Yours may end up like so many, that just never get theirs to run cool. But you won't know until you eliminate all the potential sources.

From what I’m hearing tho, it SOUNDS like:
My rad is fine & not needing to be replaced (yet if ever).

There's no way we can diagnose that from here. Only you will know if it's fine and not needing to be replaced.
The only thing we can tell you is that the design is sound and performs well when in good condition.
The rest you have to determine for yourself.

I should check it’s tune.

100% affirmative.

And look into the water pump?

Yes, but probably more as a last resort than anything else. Unless you suspect your current one to be old and perhaps worn out.
And you do have good tight belts on the accessories, correct? Slipping belts don't always lead to running hot, but it can be a factor.

Orrrr should I add a couple MORE things to the list to help be SURE?

Start with the first things and see how it goes.
Right now it's not even driveable it sounds like, so there's no way to test it unless it's running hot while sitting still.

**end goal is to run only the electric fan and not have said fan turn on much ...if that’s realistic?

No. Not even remotely if your experience is the same as most.
Yes, electric fans can work. Yes electric fans can be used by themselves.
No, most fans big enough to move that much air don't fit into a Bronco. No, most Broncos don't heat or cool at the normal places like modern aerodynamic passenger cars. Even most full-size trucks still run either a mechanical only, or a combination mechanical and electric. Have not checked the brand new crop of trucks, but up until a few years ago at least that was true.

So yes, it'd be cool if you can do it. I'm a fan of electric fans too.
But no, wait until you've achieved coolness before planning on ditching the mechanical. Keep the combination you have for now.
The primary reason I'm down on your electric-only plan right now is the results that probably 80% of electric fan Bronco users report. Which is not enough cooling under all conditions.
Some are fine, but they don't have 500hp heat-producing lumps under their hoods either.
Horsepower is heat...

Paul
 
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