Wheel Alignment shop who have people used?

[DirtDonk]

Find someone that works on new Superduties, as they are aligned for camber (and/or minor caster) with the same type "shim" as EB's.

That would be kind of shocking if they were the same! And it would, at least in theory, make parts for our truck less expensive. Well, at least one part!
The first time I’ve heard that though, so I’d love to see what exactly is done during a super duty alignment.

 

[Gas Pig]

Camber at “factory spec“ is often too much. Which may be contributing to what you think is too much camber.
Even just 2° is noticeable to the eye. And 2° is still within spec.
So did he give you all the exact specifications, or just generalities? Do you have a print out?

You can’t base any decisions on that information alone. There’s no way to know unless you measured your caster before the lift.

Were there already offset C-bushings installed before? Or just the original rubber bushings?
As we have found many times over the years, your bronco may have been built with zero caster to begin with. Or very low numbers.
Original specification was pretty low compared to what we are used to, and what we would like to see nowadays. Made it easier to steer with Manual Steering.

So at this point, you have to know what C-bushings you have. You have to look at them, or maybe even remove them, to see if they are in backwards. And go from there.
You should be able to see if they installed wrong by carefully observing them from the side up close. If they are only 2° though, it’s harder to tell. Four and 7° versions are easy to tell visually.

I didn’t get a print out because his was ready to close up for the day. He did say the camber was right at 1 deg positive and the caster line I said was 0. He told me to go home take look at the bushings (new urethane) but I don’t remember what degree I bought. After I change it he’ll put it back on the rack a check it again for no extra cost.

I bought some of those part a quite a while back and I have changed my mind to many times along the way! That the problem with loooong drawn out projects like this. Way to many midstream changes.

Anyhow with 2.5 lift what deg bushings should I have? Driving it home it did want to wonder a bit more then before. But it was to much toe-in because it was tough on the outside of the tires. So maybe if I put some caster in it that will help wondering or I need to put back a slight bit of toe-in?

 

[OX1]

That would be kind of shocking if they were the same! And it would, at least in theory, make parts for our truck less expensive. Well, at least one part!
The first time I’ve heard that though, so I’d love to see what exactly is done during a super duty alignment.

I said same "type". As in the ball joint eccentrics. Point was, a SD axle is not that far off an EB axle (ball joint D44 anyway).
So a shop that aligns SD's, should have a good idea how to align D44's.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00180J7IC/?tag=classicbroncos-20

Specialty Products Company | SPC Alignment | The Automotive Alignment Leaders

Specialty Products is the pioneer in the automotive alignment parts business and is the preferred brand by professional installers. Proven Quality, Performance Parts, Technical Training and Support.

www.spcalignment.com

 

[DirtDonk]

I don’t remember what degree I bought. After I change it he’ll put it back on the rack a check it again for no extra cost.

That’s very nice.
Do you remember who you bought them from? If it was us, we would have a record of what you bought.

Anyhow with 2.5 lift what deg bushings should I have?

That’s the point I was trying to make. We don’t really know unless you get a caster reading before the lift.
We can guess, and say that for a an approximate 2 inch lift, you should use 2° C bushings. But that’s only on paper.
In the real world, you should use at least 4° C-bushing. But since most Broncos came with crappy caster to begin with, you could really benefit from 7° C-bushings. Caster-wise anyway…
The problem then comes if you are running out of usable pinion angle.
Usually, with only 2 1/2 inches, you can work with 7° bushings. But there’s no guarantee.
And problems usually doesn’t crop up unless you’re in four-wheel-drive high range. Then you might find a vibration.
In extreme cases, you’ll get binding and lose wheel travel when off-road. On the street it’s not always an issue, again unless you are in four-wheel-drive.

Driving it home it did want to wonder a bit more than before. But it was to much toe-in because it was tough on the outside of the tires. So maybe if I put some caster in it that will help wondering or I need to put back a slight bit of toe-in?

What is the toe-in now? You said it was about 1/2” before, but did you say what it ended up with?

 

[Gas Pig]

That’s very nice.
Do you remember who you bought them from? If it was us, we would have a record of what you bought.

That’s the point I was trying to make. We don’t really know unless you get a caster reading before the lift.
We can guess, and say that for a an approximate 2 inch lift, you should use 2° C bushings. But that’s only on paper.
In the real world, you should use at least 4° C-bushing. But since most Broncos came with crappy caster to begin with, you could really benefit from 7° C-bushings. Caster-wise anyway…
The problem then comes if you are running out of usable pinion angle.
Usually, with only 2 1/2 inches, you can work with 7° bushings. But there’s no guarantee.
And problems usually doesn’t crop up unless you’re in four-wheel-drive high range. Then you might find a vibration.
In extreme cases, you’ll get binding and lose wheel travel when off-road. On the street it’s not always an issue, again unless you are in four-wheel-drive.

What is the toe-in now? You said it was about 1/2” before, but did you say what it ended up with?

I didn’t ask my guy what he set the toe-in at. I did give him the info you gave me of 1/16-1/4”. But I’ll ask him on Monday if he remembered where it was set at. It actually tracked a bit better with more toe-in but my right tire you could tell it was wearing. So maybe after I figure the caster thing out I’ll do as you said, take it in a little at a time to find that sweet spot.

As for checking with the suppliers’ history. I buy from all of them and it usually depends on who got what at the time… but I think I bought them a few years back. I’ll have to do some hunting around. Hopefully I’ll track it down!

 

[Gas Pig]

What c-bushings did you install?? What is your truck doing other than "seeming to have too much camber"? Have you added anything else to the front end like drop pitman arm and drop trac-bar bracket or riser?? Hell, any pics (always fun)??

I used 7* with my 2.5" lift along with a drop pitman arm and drop trac-bar bracket, adjustable trac bar and adjustable drag link and my truck tracks perfect.

I’ll get pictures this weekend end. It tracked ok but I could tell the out side of the front tires especially the pass was wearing hard. As for the setup I’m not using a drop pitman arm or track arm bracket. But both my drag link and track arm are both adjustable. From what Paul said it’s a toss up on the 2.5” or less lifts on drop pitman arms and drop brackets. If I remember correctly he said so trucks need them and others seem not too.

I figured if I need them, then I could incorporate them in as needed.

Anyways the tires seem happier now but it does seem to not track as true as it did with to much toe-in.

 

[DirtDonk]

Well, I might’ve said that. But more likely I said some people don’t think they need it, while others do.
I’m firmly in the camp of wanting the drop Pittman arm and track bar bracket our even with just 2 1/2 inches of lift.
Even though they drive decently without, I personally prefer with.

If you don’t find a receipt right away, and think it’s remotely possible you got them from us, just give us a call with your pertinent information and we can quickly look up if you bought any C-bushings from us in the past.
Should not be a problem, and certainly is not an imposition.
If you don’t have time to call, just send an email.

And yeah, our passenger side front tires do seem to wear out sooner than any other corner.
And too much toe-in and too much positive camber are really grinding that poor outside edge.
Less toe-in, and less camber are better for tire wear, but not always automatically better for tracking.
That’s where fiddling around with the adjustments comes in handy. Having adjustable links does let you fine tune things, but doesn’t do anything to improve the overall angle of the steering linkage. And angle of the dangle can be important too.

But before spending more money on new parts (even though I think they’re beneficial) fiddle around with the toe-in some more.
And don’t forget to check the wheel bearings as well. Not to mention the rear end.
Did we already discuss doing the test? I think you said you did earlier in the discussion, but don’t remember.

 

[Gas Pig]

Well, I might’ve said that. But more likely I said some people don’t think they need it, while others do.
I’m firmly in the camp of wanting the drop Pittman arm and track bar bracket our even with just 2 1/2 inches of lift.
Even though they drive decently without, I personally prefer with.

If you don’t find a receipt right away, and think it’s remotely possible you got them from us, just give us a call with your pertinent information and we can quickly look up if you bought any C-bushings from us in the past.
Should not be a problem, and certainly is not an imposition.
If you don’t have time to call, just send an email.

And yeah, our passenger side front tires do seem to wear out sooner than any other corner.
And too much toe-in and too much positive camber are really grinding that poor outside edge.
Less toe-in, and less camber are better for tire wear, but not always automatically better for tracking.
That’s where fiddling around with the adjustments comes in handy. Having adjustable links does let you fine tune things, but doesn’t do anything to improve the overall angle of the steering linkage. And angle of the dangle can be important too.

But before spending more money on new parts (even though I think they’re beneficial) fiddle around with the toe-in some more.
And don’t forget to check the wheel bearings as well. Not to mention the rear end.
Did we already discuss doing the test? I think you said you did earlier in the discussion, but don’t remember.

I’m sorry for incorrectly speaking on your behalf about the drop arm and bracket. As you said that I do remember you saying you prefer it but it’s not always needed but to try it first before buying anything. Maybe that is a closer version of the story???

I yet haven’t run through my receipts yet but I plan on that tonight and tomorrow. At that point I’ll try calling the shops.

Hopefully I can get this set up to drive like it should. Just wanting to be and feel comfortable to drive, especially for my kids.

 

[Gas Pig]

Well, I might’ve said that. But more likely I said some people don’t think they need it, while others do.
I’m firmly in the camp of wanting the drop Pittman arm and track bar bracket our even with just 2 1/2 inches of lift.
Even though they drive decently without, I personally prefer with.

If you don’t find a receipt right away, and think it’s remotely possible you got them from us, just give us a call with your pertinent information and we can quickly look up if you bought any C-bushings from us in the past.
Should not be a problem, and certainly is not an imposition.
If you don’t have time to call, just send an email.

And yeah, our passenger side front tires do seem to wear out sooner than any other corner.
And too much toe-in and too much positive camber are really grinding that poor outside edge.
Less toe-in, and less camber are better for tire wear, but not always automatically better for tracking.
That’s where fiddling around with the adjustments comes in handy. Having adjustable links does let you fine tune things, but doesn’t do anything to improve the overall angle of the steering linkage. And angle of the dangle can be important too.

But before spending more money on new parts (even though I think they’re beneficial) fiddle around with the toe-in some more.
And don’t forget to check the wheel bearings as well. Not to mention the rear end.
Did we already discuss doing the test? I think you said you did earlier in the discussion, but don’t remember.

Yeah for the life of me, I haven’t tracked down the order of my c-cup bushings. But if I would take a strong guess based on an old conversation I had with another Bronco owner I would say I bought 4 degree bushings. 2 degrees is basically for stock and 7 degree bushings are for 3.5” or greater. Now that has always been my understanding for a long while so I bet that is probably what I purchased.

If I did buy 4 degree bushings in theory I should have more caster then 0 with a 2.5” Would you agree? The question is if I put them in wrong the added degree of caster would be canceled??

Also question about drop pitman arm and bracket. Most of the drop arms are like 3-4”? Would that be to much for only 2.5” lift or less angle of drag link the better? Also is it important that the angle on the drag link and track arm to be as close to parallel as possible?

Thanks and if doing the drop arm and bracket is truly the best route for better handling, I’ll look to purchase them.

 

[DirtDonk]

No worries. You really were not incorrect, so sorry for making it sound that way.
Didn't consider you incorrectly speaking, just more wanting to clarify my stance on the subject. And to add that you might also have been thinking of my statements on '76 and '77 Broncos with conversion linkages as well. Which is a different version of the same issue. And where I have also said you can try it, but you likely won't like it without the dropped arm!

Was also wanting to say it's more likely I tried to convince someone to use them instead of not using them.
But yes, I'm sure I've also said that, if you have not bought the drops already, to go ahead and try it first without, and see what you think. Which saves money up front and if you're happy, that's great.
But overall, I definitely prefer to use drops even with 2.5" lifts. The lower overall angle of the draglink and trackbar are generally more desirable all around.

So with what you're dealing with, you can certainly still play with toe-in and camber and air pressures and wheel bearing adjustments and caster and bushings, all of which help. But be ready to fork over for the drops if it turns out that you're just not quite happy with how it drives.

There are lots of things that effect handling and road manners on these little short wheelbase packages. Especially once we've modified them.
My '68 with 2.5" lift and no drops still does not have the same neutral road manners as my '71 with 3.5" lift and dropped pitman arm and trackbar.
I've got the drops, but am doing other work on it and driving it this way as much as possible, with different toe-in adjustments and all, before installing the drops for the final test.

Paul

 

[Gas Pig]

No worries. You really were not incorrect, so sorry for making it sound that way.
Didn't consider you incorrectly speaking, just more wanting to clarify my stance on the subject. And to add that you might also have been thinking of my statements on '76 and '77 Broncos with conversion linkages as well. Which is a different version of the same issue. And where I have also said you can try it, but you likely won't like it without the dropped arm!

Was also wanting to say it's more likely I tried to convince someone to use them instead of not using them.
But yes, I'm sure I've also said that, if you have not bought the drops already, to go ahead and try it first without, and see what you think. Which saves money up front and if you're happy, that's great.
But overall, I definitely prefer to use drops even with 2.5" lifts. The lower overall angle of the draglink and trackbar are generally more desirable all around.

So with what you're dealing with, you can certainly still play with toe-in and camber and air pressures and wheel bearing adjustments and caster and bushings, all of which help. But be ready to fork over for the drops if it turns out that you're just not quite happy with how it drives.

There are lots of things that effect handling and road manners on these little short wheelbase packages. Especially once we've modified them.
My '68 with 2.5" lift and no drops still does not have the same neutral road manners as my '71 with 3.5" lift and dropped pitman arm and trackbar.
I've got the drops, but am doing other work on it and driving it this way as much as possible, with different toe-in adjustments and all, before installing the drops for the final test.

Paul

Paul you mentioned wheel bearing adjustments… I’m not sure what you mean?

Also even after my guy adjusted the toe-in my outer right front tread is still taking a real beating! I just don’t know it the wear was from prior the wheel alignment or still doing it? I might swap a different tire to that spot and see what happens?

Any thoughts?

 

[DirtDonk]

Absolutely! If you’ve got a tire that’s really taking a beating, rotate it out and put it on another corner.
At the very least, put it to the other side of the front. But if it was me, I’d put it on the rear and try to minimize some of that. Not really minimize I suppose, but more equalize.
If it’s not too late.

 

[DirtDonk]

By wheel bearing adjustment, I mean loose wheel bearings can give you some wandering and weirdness and driving.
They really need to be properly adjusted, and repacked periodically.
And by correct, I mean, correct according to the book. Four-wheel-drive bearings are not adjusted the same as 2 Wheel Dr. bearings.
And they’re often done incorrectly even by professional mechanics.
Usually, they’re made too tight though, but can come loose if they don’t have the proper tools to put the final torque on the outer lock nut.
They might try a hammer and chisel not get enough torque to keep it tight for the long run.

 

[DirtDonk]

Speaking of wheel bearings… Do you know the condition of your rear wheel bearings?
Have you ever had them checked since you bought the bronco? How many miles does the vehicle have on it, and is there proof that the wheel bearings were ever changed in the rear?
If not, and it’s got over 100,000 miles on it, I would seriously consider spending the money and having them changed. Or better yet, just have them checked and verified that they are good.
If not, replace them.

 

[Gas Pig]

Speaking of wheel bearings… Do you know the condition of your rear wheel bearings?
Have you ever had them checked since you bought the bronco? How many miles does the vehicle have on it, and is there proof that the wheel bearings were ever changed in the rear?
If not, and it’s got over 100,000 miles on it, I would seriously consider spending the money and having them changed. Or better yet, just have them checked and verified that they are good.
If not, replace them.

Yes the the front and rear axles were completely rebuilt with wheel bearings. I do use the correct nut tool for the bearing locking nuts. I’ll double check my front wheel bearings just to make sure they are ok. No it’s not to late for my tire. I only have less then a hundred miles on them but I can tell by outer corners of the outer tire lugs are getting ripped up. It was doing it on my junk rollers so I might put them back on until I get it finally sorted.

I put the better tires on to work with the how she rides which improved from my “bouncy ride thread” but that tire hates it even after the wheel alignment. I’ll dig into the caster issues then have it aligned again. Do you agree?

 

[DirtDonk]

Nothing there not to agree with.
Other than using “junk rollers“ for any comparisons.
Obviously, you can run them to keep from beating up your new ones, but then when you’re driving, you can’t tell how it’s gonna handle with the new ones.
Hopefully you can get it sorted soon so you can go back to the new tires and keep them on.

 

[Gas Pig]

Hey I finally got around to looking at my C-bushing. They were indeed 4 deg and installed correctly. With my 2.5 lift my caster was still at 0 degrees. I’m guessing I need to buy 7 degree bushings to get my caster to a positive angle? So in theory my 4 = 0 then 7 should = +3 would be good?

Thanks Jeff

 

[Glass Pony]

Hey I finally got around to looking at my C-bushing. They were indeed 4 deg and installed correctly. With my 2.5 lift my caster was still at 0 degrees. I’m guessing I need to buy 7 degree bushings to get my caster to a positive angle? So in theory my 4 = 0 then 7 should = +3 would be good?

Thanks Jeff

That's what I did.

 

[jamesroney]

Hey I finally got around to looking at my C-bushing. They were indeed 4 deg and installed correctly. With my 2.5 lift my caster was still at 0 degrees. I’m guessing I need to buy 7 degree bushings to get my caster to a positive angle? So in theory my 4 = 0 then 7 should = +3 would be good?

Thanks Jeff

Do yourself a favor.

1. measure the distance from the top of your axle tube to the frame. Write it down somewhere. (good idea to measure the rear as well...)
2. Find a nice level surface to park your Bronco.
3. Take a protractor, and place it against a good, reliable, easy to find reference on your front axle. I usually use the flat surface of the diff cover, or the actual heads of the cover bolts. Write that number down.
4. Reverse your Bronco on your "level surface" and measure the diff cover angle again. Write that number down.
5. Take the number from step 3 and compare it to step 4. It should be exactly the same.
6. You now know that when your ride height is "a" (number from step 1) your differential angle is "b" (number from step 3) A differential angle of "b" corresponds to a caster = 0.0.

Install whatever bushings you want. But when you put in your new 7 degree bushings...you can easily check your caster by confirming your ride height and just measuring the diff cover angle.

Getting it to 3 degrees positive will make it almost drive-able. The correct caster for an Early Bronco is 7 degrees positive. I wish you were here to drive mine. I go 70 on the Interstate all the time. I steer with my knees.

 

[Gas Pig]

Do yourself a favor.

1. measure the distance from the top of your axle tube to the frame. Write it down somewhere. (good idea to measure the rear as well...)
2. Find a nice level surface to park your Bronco.
3. Take a protractor, and place it against a good, reliable, easy to find reference on your front axle. I usually use the flat surface of the diff cover, or the actual heads of the cover bolts. Write that number down.
4. Reverse your Bronco on your "level surface" and measure the diff cover angle again. Write that number down.
5. Take the number from step 3 and compare it to step 4. It should be exactly the same.
6. You now know that when your ride height is "a" (number from step 1) your differential angle is "b" (number from step 3) A differential angle of "b" corresponds to a caster = 0.0.

Install whatever bushings you want. But when you put in your new 7 degree bushings...you can easily check your caster by confirming your ride height and just measuring the diff cover angle.

Getting it to 3 degrees positive will make it almost drive-able. The correct caster for an Early Bronco is 7 degrees positive. I wish you were here to drive mine. I go 70 on the Interstate all the time. I steer with my knees.

Honestly I know exactly what you are saying about your truck. My very first build was 72 and through many minor changes and stumbling my way through it my 72 was amazing driver. It was so solid on the highway. The combo of 5.0 and OD trans I could very comfortably cruise 70-75 without a worry. I had a hydro disc/drum and a 4x4x2 steering, it was easy to drive. I was to naïve to know that I was very fortunate to have put together such a great driving Bronco. After that I mainly only did stock 66’s which always drove great once restored. This current build has humble me more then once… but hopefully I’ll get through it? lol

I did put in the 7 degree C bushings the night you posted this. I only had a small test drive with it and it definitely felt better. My daughter drove it to work the next morning and she texted me, “ whatever you did to the bronco last night made it drive fantastically.” I’m sure the alinement still needs to be checked again after swapping out the C bushings. But hopefully I’m moving it in the right direction now!