Clutch and Trans Help Please

GrillMaster · Jul 14, 2011

Have a 351C 4 Speed Top loader and D-20… Need to change clutch and maybe rebuild the transmission.

Got the headers, starter, trans, clutch and transfer case off last night in about 6 hours. No material left on the clutch disc and some rivets worn and missing.

Have some questions:

Need to order an 11" clutch for it and many have suggested Centerforce. They run about $400 vs. $180. Is this the best clutch/route? Should I replace the flex plate? Seems a little worn but maybe I can just have it resurfaced. Who does this?

Was having trouble with the trans popping out of 2nd on downshifts and trouble going into 3rd sometimes. Fluid looked metallic and it look like two small pieces of metal in the magnetic drain plug. Does it need rebuild while it is out?

Anything I should do to the D-20 while it's out? May twin stick it.

Any advise is appreciated.

Explorer · Jul 14, 2011

For one thing, it will be a flywheel, not flexplate. If you can see it's worn then definatly yes, have it resurfaced. About any auto machine shop does them.

70_Steve · Jul 14, 2011

GrillMaster said:
Need to order an 11" clutch for it and many have suggested Centerforce. They run about $400 vs. $180. Is this the best clutch/route? Should I replace the flex plate? Seems a little worn but maybe I can just have it resurfaced. Who does this?

The drag racers like Centerforce pressure plates. Their claim-to-fame is that, with counter-weights, they will clamp harder as the RPMs go up. Unless you're running the dunes, you probably won't notice a difference. I've been running a standard LUK clutch disk and pressure plate for several years. Works fine.

Yes, by all means, have the flywheel resurfaced. Any automotive machine shop should be able to do this. Or, one of the box auto parts stores should be able to point you in the right direction. Used to cost ~$40.

GrillMaster said:
Was having trouble with the trans popping out of 2nd on downshifts and trouble going into 3rd sometimes. Fluid looked metallic and it look like two small pieces of metal in the magnetic drain plug. Does it need rebuild while it is out?

Sounds like it...

Now would be the time, rather than pull it again later.

GrillMaster said:
Anything I should do to the D-20 while it's out? May twin stick it.

Moght consider setting up the rear output shaft with a preload, rather than the .003-.005 end play that Spicer specs. Does it need resealing?
J-shift or t-shift? If it's a t-shift, and you really want to twin-stick, now's the time, since you have to disassemble the transfer case if you want the independent front and rear shifting.

Pokey71 · Jul 14, 2011

If I was in your shoes I would do it all at once.

70_Steve said:
you probably won't notice a difference. I've been running a standard LUK clutch disk and pressure plate for several years. Works fine.

Im going to have to disagree with that. The LUK clutch is great and lasted me a very long time. The only real compliant I have about it is after a long weekend of wheeling, The clutch is worn out and doesnt grab like it should. Usually by the time I get home (3 hour drive) The clutch is worn in enough to drive it on the street again.

If you're going to be doing some serious wheeling, get a CF. If you're going to do some wheeling once in a while, Get the LUK.

GrillMaster · Jul 14, 2011

This the correct one? $420! If it's worth it I'll pay the extra bucks. I drive my truck hard.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTF-DF132057S/Application/?prefilter=1

the one I pulled had a larger 11" disc this is 10.4

GrillMaster · Jul 14, 2011

The Cleveland drag racers seems to favor the Mcleod Clutches

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MCLEOD-11X26-CLUTCH-KIT-351C-164-TOOTH-FLYWHEEL-/250841069768

broncnaz · Jul 14, 2011

I'd dont know much about the centerforce but in most cases the disc will still wear out before you ever have isues with the pressure plate. If your wearing out clutches fast then you probably need lower gearing. I'd go with the standard bronco clutch if you go with centerforce its about $100 cheaper than the pantera clutch you linked to. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTF-DF700000/
but really I've never had issues with other brands of clutches just dont get the el cheapo no names.

Flywheels should always be resurfaced when installing a new clutch. I can only imagine that your flywheel is not in great shape if the disc material was pretty much gone and rivets were gone as well. Might even have larger grooves in the flywheel to the point that a new flywheel may be needed.
I'd rebuild the tranny any metal in it is a bad sign not to mention the shifting issues you already have the longer you run it the more damage that will be done.
Personally I seriously consider a tranny swap while I like the 4 sp toploader it is by no means a transmission for a 4wd. 1st gear is worse than a stock 3sp.
I probably wouldnt do anything to the D20 unless you think it needs a rebuild.

Pokey71 · Jul 14, 2011

http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Deluxe_CenterforceII_Clutch_Kit/Early_Bronco_Clutch

GrillMaster · Jul 14, 2011

I did think of upgrading to an overdrive auto or a 5 speed 4500 or ZF

Any thoughts?

Pokey71 · Jul 14, 2011

GrillMaster said:
I did think of upgrading to an overdrive auto or a 5 speed 4500 or ZF

Any thoughts?

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1867863&postcount=8

GrillMaster · Jul 14, 2011

Looking at both I don't think it's in my budget to upgrade the trans unless I find a great deal on one.

Looks like it would cost around 2k and up.

Whats the difference between these two
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTF-DF700000/
http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product..._Bronco_Clutch
would both work on a 351C?

broncnaz · Jul 14, 2011

Most likely its the same part just that WH offers a better price. Yes they will both work on a 351C. the clutch bolt pattern for most early fords ie 289/302/351W/351C are all the same. I'm pretty sure the flywheels interchange form the windsors to the cleveland as well.

I have a feeling that the pantera cars had a slightly different bellhousing for clearance issues hence the smaller clutch.

blubuckaroo · Jul 14, 2011

///////////////////////////
MINOR HI-JACK!!!!!!!!!!!

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Can I get a Centerforce II pressure plate without a complete kit? I have a NV3550 kit that came with a disc.

broncodriver99 · Jul 14, 2011

blubuckaroo said:
///////////////////////////
MINOR HI-JACK!!!!!!!!!!!
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Can I get a Centerforce II pressure plate without a complete kit? I have a NV3550 kit that came with a disc.

I believe Summit has them separately as well as Advance Adapters.

Desert Thrasher · Jul 14, 2011

Your top loader definitely needs rebuilt. I would go on some mustang forums and post it for sale. Those top loaders are worth a lot of money. It wont bring as much because it needs rebuilt, but its still worth money to the right people. I just rebuilt one for my Ranchero, it was fairly easy, and it was my first transmission rebuild.
Anyway, I would use the money from selling the top loader and put it towards a ZF, or an NP435 if you cant afford the ZF.

VT_Don · Jul 14, 2011

Grill, as usually the case, every lonesome and bored, numb nut with no first hand experience has to add their two cents. I don't know what it is about a high compression Clevelands, but they are very particular to what clutch works well. After installing various brands of new clutches, I finally settled on an 11-inch, Centerforce Dual friction. Like magic, my clutch chatter woes were cured. I'm now swapping in a NV3550 and may have to replace the both the disc and pressure plate because the dick wads at Centerforce will not sell a Dual Friction disc separately. Hence, I may be inclined to sell my existing clutch with approx 90% remaining life.
Regarding your top loader, I'm assuming you didn't install it. To fit a Bronco the main shaft and extension housing are changed. As such, it isn't worth much to a non Bronco owner. The price to rebuild, plus buy a new main shaft and locate a extension housing is more then the unit's worth.

70_Steve · Jul 15, 2011

VT_Don said:
Grill, as usually the case, every lonesome and bored, numb nut with no first hand experience has to add their two cents.

Have we met???

;D

GrillMaster · Jul 15, 2011

VT_Don said:
Grill, as usually the case, every lonesome and bored, numb nut with no first hand experience has to add their two cents. I don't know what it is about a high compression Clevelands, but they are very particular to what clutch works well. After installing various brands of new clutches, I finally settled on an 11-inch, Centerforce Dual friction. Like magic, my clutch chatter woes were cured. I'm now swapping in a NV3550 and may have to replace the both the disc and pressure plate because the dick wads at Centerforce will not sell a Dual Friction disc separately. Hence, I may be inclined to sell my existing clutch with approx 90% remaining life.
Regarding your top loader, I'm assuming you didn't install it. To fit a Bronco the main shaft and extension housing are changed. As such, it isn't worth much to a non Bronco owner. The price to rebuild, plus buy a new main shaft and locate a extension housing is more then the unit's worth.

Why can't you swap your existing DF disc clutch in?

I guess my toploader is only good to a bronco guy. It's been in my truck since I bought it and has the new main shaft and extension housing. What else did people put these in? (in this configuration). This means I can't save it for my 64 Fairlane

Would be a sweet trans for a mostly street driven bronco. Just not enough gear on the trail... although it has been enough to get me through some difficult rocks, trrails and dunes. So now the question is do I rebuild it or find that ZF. Hope to find one rebuilt for around a grand (no core). Let me know if you see anything in CA area.

Thanks

GrillMaster · Jul 15, 2011

Maybe I would be better off keeping the toploader and spending the money on a doubler or three speed atlas?

Though this would not get me any more top end

Desert Thrasher · Jul 15, 2011

What ratio top loader do you have? Wide or Close? The wide ratio has a 2.78 first gear, which is not great for wheelin but with a doubler or atlas or stak, it might be ok. Probably around 40:1 crawl ratio, maybe lower depending what tc gearing you end up with. If you want lower than that you need a different transmission.

Clutch and Trans Help Please

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