What determines the year of a body swapped vehicle?

[DR650]

Is it the frame? What's to stop me from taking the liscence plates off one truck, putting them on another truck and calling the bodys swapped? I'm sure there's laws but what are they. I'm in California day dreaming about avoiding smog on a 1979 Bronco by swapping to an older vin

 

[fatboy]

Varies state by state but VIN is driven by the frame.

 

[Broncobowsher]

The official VIN of this vintage is what is stamped on the frame.
Altering it is illegal in all 50 states and at the federal level.
You may get away with it for awhile. In the end it usually ends up a huge stinky mess of devalued unregisterable, untitalable. At best it just gets parted out and we lost more vintage iron on the road. At worst, you learn to never drop a bar of soap in the shower.

 

[904Bronco]

It is no Fun, having just gone through the process to smog my 79. But I wanted it off Non Op, which had been on for 15 yrs, while it had been parked in a field in central CA.
Carb rebuild, new fuel tank and sender (as 15 year old fuel does some bad things to metal), source some smog components, not because they were missing but because they had been damaged in a carb fire. There was also the fact that none of the 79 emission diagrams matched my vehicle. Mystery TVS that was disconnected on the heater hoses to the AC unit? So I removed it and set everything up to the CA emissions diagram. Then there was the wrong EGR valve that Napa sold me, there are three: CA, FED, and High Altitude. After the first smog test that I failed due to excessive NOX, I got the correct EGR value, confirmed that it was opening, and that the load valve was functioning. (Closes EGR on wide open throttle) I also retarded the timing 2 degrees and opened up the Carb mixture screws a 1/4 turn... It passed the 2nd time with flying colors.
Then I went to the DMV on the anniversary of my purchase, only to be told I would have to pay for the Tags for 23 and 24, unless I waited until Nov. 24th of this year which happened to be the anniversary of when it was put on smog 15 years ago.
I want to EFI this rig, but it will never happen here in this state. Having done an EFI conversion on a 77 with Fox body mustang EFI, the process with the Smog Ref soured my desire to do it again.
Having said all this, I would never consider doing what you suggest as when you get caught (and it is only a mater of time with plate readers and such everywhere) CA will extract their pound of flesh from you...

 

[jamesroney]

Is it the frame? What's to stop me from taking the liscence plates off one truck, putting them on another truck and calling the bodys swapped? I'm sure there's laws but what are they. I'm in California day dreaming about avoiding smog on a 1979 Bronco by swapping to an older vin

Q. Is it the frame?
A. Sometimes. In the case of an Early Bronco, it is the frame. In the case of other vehicles, it is the body. In the case of motorcycles, it can be the engine. So you will get the incorrect "answer" here...because you asked a super generic question about a very specific legal definition. For the 1980+ Bronco, it is the area of the sheet metal immediately attached to and surrounding the VIN plate tag, which is visible thru the windshield on the Driver's side. For your 1978 Bronco, it is stamped on the Frame on the passenger frame rail near the starter. There are a couple of "Rating Plates" on the 78-79 that have the vin number on them, but those rating plates are not the vin. On this forum you will see the term Data Plate, or Glovebox tag for the Early Bronco.

Q. What is to stop me from swapping license plates?
A. It is unlawful to swap license plates. People do it all the time to cheat on registration. The only thing to stop you is law enforcement. What stops you from doing anything illegal? It is the threat of prosecution.

Q2. What is to stop me from calling the body's swapped?
A. Nothing. You can swap bodies all you want. Nobody cares if you swap your tailgate, hood, fender, door, bumper, or whatever. Swap bodies all you want. You can jack up your radiator cap and park another Bronco underneath it. Call it what you want. The only thing that matters is that right front frame rail, and anything reasonably welded, or riveted to it.

Q3. What are the laws?
A. Start with 18 USC 511, VIN tampering. Its a Federal Statute. That should be a big enough felony for you. There are various state laws as well. But you have asked about violating several different laws. One was VIN swapping, and one was License Plate swapping. Totally different illegal activities. Plate swapping is covered under CVC4463. There are also various statutes regarding False Statements to Officers in the event that you present your registration paperwork to a LEO. And plenty of Fraud opportunity pertaining to insurance. But why in the world would you ask that in a public forum?

Keep in mind that if you ever get involved in an accident, or if your vehicle is ever impounded for any reason...there is a high probability that you will not want it back. CHP is pretty ruthless when removing tampered VIN's, and the vehicle can be considered to be evidence during your prosecution. There is no remedy that enables you to reclaim your property if you did in fact alter the VIN.

 

[Oldtimer]

The "easiest" way to avoid CA smog rules, is move to another state.

 

[DR650]

Q. Is it the frame?
A. Sometimes. In the case of an Early Bronco, it is the frame. In the case of other vehicles, it is the body. In the case of motorcycles, it can be the engine. So you will get the incorrect "answer" here...because you asked a super generic question about a very specific legal definition. For the 1980+ Bronco, it is the area of the sheet metal immediately attached to and surrounding the VIN plate tag, which is visible thru the windshield on the Driver's side. For your 1978 Bronco, it is stamped on the Frame on the passenger frame rail near the starter. There are a couple of "Rating Plates" on the 78-79 that have the vin number on them, but those rating plates are not the vin. On this forum you will see the term Data Plate, or Glovebox tag for the Early Bronco.

Q. What is to stop me from swapping license plates?
A. It is unlawful to swap license plates. People do it all the time to cheat on registration. The only thing to stop you is law enforcement. What stops you from doing anything illegal? It is the threat of prosecution.

Q2. What is to stop me from calling the body's swapped?
A. Nothing. You can swap bodies all you want. Nobody cares if you swap your tailgate, hood, fender, door, bumper, or whatever. Swap bodies all you want. You can jack up your radiator cap and park another Bronco underneath it. Call it what you want. The only thing that matters is that right front frame rail, and anything reasonably welded, or riveted to it.

Q3. What are the laws?
A. Start with 18 USC 511, VIN tampering. Its a Federal Statute. That should be a big enough felony for you. There are various state laws as well. But you have asked about violating several different laws. One was VIN swapping, and one was License Plate swapping. Totally different illegal activities. Plate swapping is covered under CVC4463. There are also various statutes regarding False Statements to Officers in the event that you present your registration paperwork to a LEO. And plenty of Fraud opportunity pertaining to insurance. But why in the world would you ask that in a public forum?

Keep in mind that if you ever get involved in an accident, or if your vehicle is ever impounded for any reason...there is a high probability that you will not want it back. CHP is pretty ruthless when removing tampered VIN's, and the vehicle can be considered to be evidence during your prosecution. There is no remedy that enables you to reclaim your property if you did in fact alter the VIN.

I think you misunderstood my question which I take some responsibility for given that in hindsight it was worded ambiguously.

What I was asking was what stops me from swapping vins/plates *legally*. Have you heard of the ship of theseus paradox? That's where my mind is at.

Say hypothetically i found a frame on a 1975 or older truck that was compatible and body swapped a 1979 Bronco body onto it. That would get me out of smog right?

Also how is the year of the frame defined legally? Please note I'm not asking how it's determined in practice. I understand that some inspector is going to look under it and read the VIN And 99% of the time that will probably be the end of it. What I'm wondering is if I took the frame from a 1974 Bronco and the frame from a 1976 Bronco and cut them both in half and then welded the left half from the 1974 to the right half of the 1976 what would the year of that frame be? Would it just be the year of the part of the frame that had the vin on it? Would it even be legal to custom create a frame that way?

I understand these are pretty specific legal questions so if you don't know the answer it's totally understandable, it's just something I was wondering about



"aaaahhhh The walking on the thin ice if the law.
Swithching ID plates in Colorado.
I would not recommend it.
First.... in Colorado it is ILLEGAL to remove the plate for ANY reason!There is a narrow possibility for doing a repair where the damage to the area where the ID # is is dammaged and would need to be removed for repairs.. By law it has to be inspected by a lawenforcement officer ( I belives it has to be C S P )to document and he has refasten the plate. I would recommend verifying this first."

Found this on another forum which more or less answers my question

 

[jamesroney]

I think you misunderstood my question which I take some responsibility for given that in hindsight it was worded ambiguously.

What I was asking was what stops me from swapping vins/plates *legally*. Have you heard of the ship of theseus paradox? That's where my mind is at.

Say hypothetically i found a frame on a 1975 or older truck that was compatible and body swapped a 1979 Bronco body onto it. That would get me out of smog right?

Also how is the year of the frame defined legally? Please note I'm not asking how it's determined in practice. I understand that some inspector is going to look under it and read the VIN And 99% of the time that will probably be the end of it. What I'm wondering is if I took the frame from a 1974 Bronco and the frame from a 1976 Bronco and cut them both in half and then welded the left half from the 1974 to the right half of the 1976 what would the year of that frame be? Would it just be the year of the part of the frame that had the vin on it? Would it even be legal to custom create a frame that way?

I understand these are pretty specific legal questions so if you don't know the answer it's totally understandable, it's just something I was wondering about

I am quite familiar with the Ship of Theseus. And many of the variants...

But your analogy is not applicable. You are not building the Ship of Theseus. As soon as you call it a 79 Bronco, you break the analogy. You are building the exact opposite. Allow me to demonstrate your thought experiment from an alternative perspective. And you will see how it is exactly the same outcome...but totally legitimate and legal.

If you found a 1975 Vehicle, it would be exempt from emissions inspection in the State of CA. If you choose to alter that vehicle in such a way that it ended up with a 1979 body on it, it would remain exempt from emissions inspection. There are hundreds of pre-1975 Broncos running around with 1977 bodies on them.

How is the year of the frame defined legally? Here again, you are looking for a specific answer to your specific situation...but you are asking a generic question for which there are countless answers. So without going into "how is the year of the frame defined legally" you need to ask: "How is the year of a 1975 F100 determined?" Do you see the difference in the question? The answer is that a 1975 Ford F100 has a VIN location and type as described in the 1975 NATB Motor Vehicle Identification Manual. I will post a pic here of my 1970 NATB and the relevant section applying to the 1970 Bronco. The Vehicle is identified by an 11 digit code "Die stamped into top surface of RH frame side rail, approximately 12 inches to rear of shock absorber tower under hood."

You would need to reference the NATB or NICB book for your exact year and model.

What you want to do is find a 1975 F100 4x4, and then modify the wheelbase to match the Bronco. Then install the body, engine, drivetrain, doors, console, tailgate, whatever...from a 1979 Bronco...and viola, it's exactly what you want.

I have been doing what you are trying to do for years. It can be done. If done correctly, it is difficult but rewarding. If done incorrectly, it is a felony.

 

[bmc69]

What you want to do is find a 1975 F100 4x4, and then modify the wheelbase to match the Bronco. Then install the body, engine, drivetrain, doors, console, tailgate, whatever...from a 1979 Bronco...and viola, it's exactly what you want.

Bingo. That ^. But of course the title will still says its an F100 and not a Bronco...

 

[bmc69]

Swithching ID plates in Colorado.
I would not recommend it.
First.... in Colorado it is ILLEGAL to remove the plate for ANY reason!There is a narrow possibility for doing a repair where the damage to the area where the ID # is is dammaged and would need to be removed for repairs.. By law it has to be inspected by a lawenforcement officer ( I belives it has to be C S P )to document and he has refasten the plate. I would recommend verifying this first."

Found this on another forum which more or less answers my question

There are no VIN "ID plates" on the ford trucks and Broncos up to and including 1979.

 

[thegreatjustino]

Bingo. That ^. But of course the title will still says its an F100 and not a Bronco...

It might differ between states, but in CA the model isn't listed on the title. It's just the make. Title just says Ford. Could be a Mustang, Bronco, F150, Pinto, LTD. There would be no way to tell the make from just the title.

 

[DirtDonk]

That’s interesting. My registration for the’71 Bronco defines it as a 71 Ford Wagon.
Or it used to at least. Haven’t looked in awhile.
So, in some cases, it’s at least a little specific.

 

[jamesroney]

That’s interesting. My registration for the’71 Bronco defines it as a 71 Ford Wagon.
Or it used to at least. Haven’t looked in awhile.
So, in some cases, it’s at least a little specific.

@thegreatjustino nailed this one. Take another look at your registration for your 71. There should be: "make", "MO", "class" and "Body Type" Those fields were updated sometime after 1980, and before 2000 to just the three: "make", "class", and "Body Type Model"

So if you have an old pink slip, you might see "Ford" and then "SW" and then "class" is a 2 character code that relates to the cost/value of the car when new, and MO = another 2 character code that has some look up table data somewhere.

My 67 Mustang was Make=Ford, Body Type=2D, MO=KA, class=AK and no mention of Mustang.
Early Bronco's were a little strange with the three different body types, SW, PK, and RD

BTM codes are linked here https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handb.../chart-1-body-type-model-and-body-type-codes/

The last Bronco I had verified at DMV resulted in a BTM of Utility or "UT" It was a Station Wagon, so I didn't care. The DMV tech called it a Jeep.

 

[bmc69]

I've owned probably a dozen 66-77 EBs and recall at least four different body/model descriptions on those titles. ;-)

 

[sprdv1]

The official VIN of this vintage is what is stamped on the frame.
Altering it is illegal in all 50 states and at the federal level.
You may get away with it for awhile. In the end it usually ends up a huge stinky mess of devalued unregisterable, untitalable. At best it just gets parted out and we lost more vintage iron on the road. At worst, you learn to never drop a bar of soap in the shower.

Yeah may want to be very careful w/that for sure