Cb, handheld, Haam ETC What do you use?

[gasspaser]

What are all you using on the trail for comunicating? CB ,Handheld, Hamm, Etc?// What models are good for a desent price?

 

[SaddleUp]

People normally use what is easy and that is functional. Not necessarily the best. In most cases this ends up being a CB which is by far the most widely used for trail communication. Ham is probably the best because it will work at much greater distances. The problem with Ham is that everyone needs to be licensed in the group in order to use it making it kind of inconvenient. I plan to eventually do this for leading trail runs to communicate with other trail leaders. I.E. For the immediate group they would use CB while the trail leaders could communicate between each other across the mountain with Ham. Handheld VHF radios do pretty well in open areas but I can't seem to get them to work to well through the mountain. I.E. If you go around a bend that is blocked by a hill they don't carry around it too well. That may not be too bad but they are also hard to hear as the speakers in them just don't put out much sound. I've used them to go across the country and they worked very well in an enclosed cab with very little outside noise. They also probably have the best clarity as well. On the trail they are about as practical as a handheld CB. We have used them some during recovery operations where we were running long winch pulls so both people working the recovery could communicate. They work good for spotters as well so the spotter can back away a little. A handheld CB works just as well for these instances though and is handy to carry to allow others to borrow. At any rate CB is what is used the most and it is pretty much the only thing I use anymore. As to models Cobra and Uniden are well known names. I'm sure a couple of others will pop up as well. The actual model really doesn't make much difference since CB's all run the maximum power allowed. This even includes the handheld CB's. Therefore the choice boils down to features and quality. Don't get too stuck on features though as they often just amount to extra bling that doesn't really provide much function. A good quality unit in the $70 to $100 range is all that is needed. I run a Cobra myself. It has a built in SWR meter which is good enough in a pinch to be sure the wiring is good to the antenna but I wouldn't trust it for setting the antenna length. That's where the greatest attention needs to be. I.E. The antenna is what makes the radio. Wilsons come highly rated and I just put one on mine (To replace the Firestick II that I busted off last trip out). Firestick and K40 probably run 2nd. and 3rd. respectively. I've used both in the past and between them the Firestick II was the better performer. The Wilson is supposed to be quite a bit better even than it is though so we will see.

To wrap it up.
1: Get a decent CB radio. Don't get a $20 cheapy but there isn't any need to spend $300 on one either.
2: Get the best antenna that will work for what you need. This is much more important than what radio you get.
3: Be sure the installation is done correctly. Expecially regarding the antenna wiring. A short or break in the antenna wiring can quickly kill the radio. The antenna cable also needs to be a specific length so be sure it is right as well.
4: Trim the antenna length using a good SWR meter. If you don't trim it in and it is too long or too short then that can also kill the radio.

 

[TJK74]

I'm running an old...OLD Uniden CB with a cobra mic and a firestick II. Looks like junk works like a champ and nobody would ever want to steal it;D

 

[Skiddy]

I have all 3 handheld, Vhf, and Cb. Like saddleup said the Vhf works good at close range as the handheld cb (but works great with an external antenna).

 

[Landshark]

People normally use what is easy and that is functional. Not necessarily the best. In most cases this ends up being a CB which is by far the most widely used for trail communication. Ham is probably the best because it will work at much greater distances. The problem with Ham is that everyone needs to be licensed in the group in order to use it making it kind of inconvenient. I plan to eventually do this for leading trail runs to communicate with other trail leaders. I.E. For the immediate group they would use CB while the trail leaders could communicate between each other across the mountain with Ham. Handheld VHF radios do pretty well in open areas but I can't seem to get them to work to well through the mountain. I.E. If you go around a bend that is blocked by a hill they don't carry around it too well. That may not be too bad but they are also hard to hear as the speakers in them just don't put out much sound. I've used them to go across the country and they worked very well in an enclosed cab with very little outside noise. They also probably have the best clarity as well. On the trail they are about as practical as a handheld CB. We have used them some during recovery operations where we were running long winch pulls so both people working the recovery could communicate. They work good for spotters as well so the spotter can back away a little. A handheld CB works just as well for these instances though and is handy to carry to allow others to borrow. At any rate CB is what is used the most and it is pretty much the only thing I use anymore. As to models Cobra and Uniden are well known names. I'm sure a couple of others will pop up as well. The actual model really doesn't make much difference since CB's all run the maximum power allowed. This even includes the handheld CB's. Therefore the choice boils down to features and quality. Don't get too stuck on features though as they often just amount to extra bling that doesn't really provide much function. A good quality unit in the $70 to $100 range is all that is needed. I run a Cobra myself. It has a built in SWR meter which is good enough in a pinch to be sure the wiring is good to the antenna but I wouldn't trust it for setting the antenna length. That's where the greatest attention needs to be. I.E. The antenna is what makes the radio. Wilsons come highly rated and I just put one on mine (To replace the Firestick II that I busted off last trip out). Firestick and K40 probably run 2nd. and 3rd. respectively. I've used both in the past and between them the Firestick II was the better performer. The Wilson is supposed to be quite a bit better even than it is though so we will see.

To wrap it up.
1: Get a decent CB radio. Don't get a $20 cheapy but there isn't any need to spend $300 on one either.
2: Get the best antenna that will work for what you need. This is much more important than what radio you get.
3: Be sure the installation is done correctly. Expecially regarding the antenna wiring. A short or break in the antenna wiring can quickly kill the radio. The antenna cable also needs to be a specific length so be sure it is right as well.
4: Trim the antenna length using a good SWR meter. If you don't trim it in and it is too long or too short then that can also kill the radio.

Everything Saddle said is dead on with one exception.....coax length. It's an old myth that you need certain length to get the proper SWR, not true. You can route and cut the coax what-ever length you'll need without hindering performance, you will want to have 50 ohm reading at the feed point on the antenna.
I will reiterate one thing he said ANTENNA!!!!! It is the most important part, so chose your antenna and mounting point well to get that thing a rocking!!!

 

[74BroncoCO]

I use a $20 Uniden ebay special CB and a name brand antenna (can't remeber the brand), but it seems to work fine. Mine is very simple to use and was basically plug-and-play. I know I could probably get better performance, but I rarely need it at this point. Also in my wheeling group, everyone asked what i was using because I always some thru loud and clear. I do agree that you should spend the money on an antenna and get a descent CB. Ebay or amazon can be used for good deals once you nail down what you want.

J.D.

 

[Grunt1058]

Local truck stops carry everything you'll need for a good CB setup. Get the $40/$50.00 Cobra and a Wilson 1000 antenna. If you have a hard top, mount it in the middle of the hard top for best results. Also, mount your CB to your roll cage (if you have one) so the speaker is above your head. This will give you much better hearing then the below the dash mounts most people do.

 

[Nobody]

Everything Saddle said is dead on with one exception.....coax length. It's an old myth that you need certain length to get the proper SWR, not true. You can route and cut the coax what-ever length you'll need without hindering performance, you will want to have 50 ohm reading at the feed point on the antenna.
I will reiterate one thing he said ANTENNA!!!!! It is the most important part, so chose your antenna and mounting point well to get that thing a rocking!!!

Here's what the folks at Firestik have to say on coax length.

About the length: This is a testy subject with many engineering types. They have argued with us on many occasions regarding this matter. They say that if your system is set-up properly that the length of the coax is irrelevant. We agree! However, mobile installations have so many variables that a perfect set-up is the exception, not the rule. One guy has a pick-up and another has a fiberglass motorhome. One wants the antenna on the bumper, another on the hood and a third on the roof. Few people want to drill holes in their vehicle so quality grounds are always a consideration. Because of the imperfect world, we almost always recommend 18' (5.5m) when our products are used. We do so with good reason too! At 18' the voltage curve has dropped back to the zero voltage point where the cable meets the antenna which reduces the reactance within the cable itself (a null cable if you would). It has been our experience that if the antenna location makes it somewhat out of sync with its surroundings, cable lengths that are not multiples of our 18' suggestion adds to the problem. To that, our complaining experts say, "Then the antenna should be moved!" to which we say, "You tell the guy with the $30,000 vehicle that he must drill a hole in his roof so he can use a 9' cable". We solve problems in the best way we can given the boundaries that the customer establishes.

On that note, when you have 18' of coax going to a radio that is only 8' away, what should you do with the other 10'? We recommend that you serpentine it like a skein of yarn so that it is 10-14" long and tie it in the center with a wire tie then tuck it away. Do not roll it up in a tight circle as this can cause it to act like an RF choke, which often times will cause system problems.

 

[Landshark]

Here's what the folks at Firestik have to say on coax length.

About the length: This is a testy subject with many engineering types. They have argued with us on many occasions regarding this matter. They say that if your system is set-up properly that the length of the coax is irrelevant. We agree! However, mobile installations have so many variables that a perfect set-up is the exception, not the rule. One guy has a pick-up and another has a fiberglass motorhome. One wants the antenna on the bumper, another on the hood and a third on the roof. Few people want to drill holes in their vehicle so quality grounds are always a consideration. Because of the imperfect world, we almost always recommend 18' (5.5m) when our products are used. We do so with good reason too! At 18' the voltage curve has dropped back to the zero voltage point where the cable meets the antenna which reduces the reactance within the cable itself (a null cable if you would). It has been our experience that if the antenna location makes it somewhat out of sync with its surroundings, cable lengths that are not multiples of our 18' suggestion adds to the problem. To that, our complaining experts say, "Then the antenna should be moved!" to which we say, "You tell the guy with the $30,000 vehicle that he must drill a hole in his roof so he can use a 9' cable". We solve problems in the best way we can given the boundaries that the customer establishes.

On that note, when you have 18' of coax going to a radio that is only 8' away, what should you do with the other 10'? We recommend that you serpentine it like a skein of yarn so that it is 10-14" long and tie it in the center with a wire tie then tuck it away. Do not roll it up in a tight circle as this can cause it to act like an RF choke, which often times will cause system problems.

Well I read their statement some 15 years ago, of course they are selling the antenna and it would behoove them to say that it should be sold in 1/2 wave lengths. Here's another site that say's different, the Arrl antenna handbook says different than Firestick, Bill Orr's antenna book says different than Firestick's site. I've been running CB, 10 meter, 2 meter etc etc since the early 70's and used to think that theory too, until Bill Orr told me to test the antenna theory that coax length doesn't do anything to affect the performance.

Why does my coax length affect the SWR of my antenna?

How many of you change the length of your coax to tune your antenna? One of my good friends said to me, "I think changing the length of the coax is the same as moving the gamma rod adjustment on my Moonraker 4". Sorry to say, this is not true. As most people will find, varying the length of coax to the antenna will vary the SWR that the SWR meter is reporting. Actually, SWR should remain relatively constant no matter how long the coax is or where it is placed on the line (if its 5 feet down the coax from the radio or 50 feet down the coax from the radio). In most cases, the cause of inconsistant SWR meter readings is from poor SWR meter design or component aging / failure. For the SWR meter to read consistant SWR readings on the coax, the meter has to have an impedance itself of exactly 50 Ohms. Any deviation of the SWR meter's self impedance (from 50 Ohms) from poor design or component aging / error / failure will cause slightly inconsistant SWR readings when the SWR meters position on the coax or length of the coax is varied. In practice, generally you will find varying the coax length seemingly effects the SWR reading. Most SWR meters (built into radio and external type meters) and impedance "humps" in coax lines and connectors will cause minor variations in SWR as jumpers and coax length are varied. In reality, the mismatch at the antenna's feedpoint / coax junction is unchanged. Therefore - the actual SWR is unchanged.

Another reason SWR could vary is from the situation where the coax is acting as part of the antenna. Not a favorable or normal situation. The signal is traveling back down the outside of the of the coax braid (note power should only be traveling on the inside on the coax braid). Therefore, the coax is part of antenna system and changing the coax length will change the SWR. This situation is more likely to occur in mobile installations. You can try to eliminate this situation (called "Common mode currents") by winding an "RF Choke". Wind about 6ft of RG-213 or RG-8 into a coil (6 to 8 turns). For RG-58 use 4ft with 6 to 8 turns. Wind the coax up, placing each turn right next to one another. Use electrical tape to secure turns together. You should place these as close to the antenna as possible. Right at the antenna coax connection point being optimum. Most times, you can verify that you have common mode currents flowing back down the coax by grabbing hold of the coax while transmitting and moving the coax around. You can watch the SWR waver by moving the coax while transmitting (don't speak into mic!). You have to do this with all the doors closed from inside the vehicle. SWR should waver, if you notice that SWR jumps rapidily between two values, you might have a intermitant (bad) connection in the connectors (PL-259s) on the coax. In most cases of "common mode currents", just grabbing the coax will cause the SWR to change.

The "RF choke" described above stops the signal from traveling back down the outside of the coax. The signal inside the coax is * u n a f f e c t e d * by the choke (contrary to what you may have heard about coiling up excess coax). Common mode current kills antenna efficieny. You could have a decent SWR and not realize half your signal is being broadcast into you car (result very poor antenna performance). If your linear amplifier causes serious problems with your car's computer, lights, etc....you may have common mode currents. If moving the coax around the vehicle results in SWR change, this is a good indicator you have common mode currents flowing back down the coax line.

This doesn't happen often with base station antennas. Most base antennas have some type of device that will decouple the antenna from the feedline (gamma match, balun, etc.). Make sure you run your feedling (coax) straight down from the antenna, taking care not to run close to antenna to prevent "common mode" currents which could still occur if coax is oriented in a way to pick up strong antenna signal.

Coax Length Issues Simplified

Question: What is the "correct" length of coax?
Answer: The shortest length that makes it from the radio to the antenna.


Question: Are there any exceptions to the above rule?
Answer: 75 Ohm harnesses for Co-phasing is the only exception.


Question: Why do most mobile antenna makers recommend 18 feet of coax?
Answer: You got me, they claim you should use 1/2 wavelength multiples of coax. 18 feet isn't even close to being a 1/2 wavelength in any 50 Ohm coax you will find. Check some commonly used coax using the above formulas. RG-58, the most commonly used mobile antenna coax length would have to be 12 feet to be a 1/2 wavelength. RG-8X would need to be 14 feet.


Question: Ok, seriously nerd, when I trim my coax it changes my SWR. You can't tell me it's not good to lower my SWR from 1.5 to 1.2 by taking off a few extra feet of coax.
Answer: Hey, I'm not a nerd! Go ahead, change your coax length. If you change coax length and it affects your SWR in minute amounts, everything is working fine. If your SWR was 2.5:1 and putting in a 4 foot jumper brought it down to 1.3:1, this large change indicates you have real problems...i.e. common mode currents (see above). Really, you should be changing the antennas length to alter SWR. NO special length of 50 ohm coax is going to fix or lower your SWR signficantly and/or boost performance. Period.

Question: I notice when I change coax length, my "modulation" needle jumps more / harder / faster when I talk. I get more watts out of the radio (verified by a watt meter) with certain lengths of coax. Is there a certain length that will allow my radio to put out the most power?
Answer: No, there isn't a magic certain length that will do this. Certain lengths of coax will allow your radio to "see" a load that it can couple with better which results in more power out of the radio / amp. Unfortunately, there isn't a good way to determine what length you need to allow the radio to put out the max wattage its capable of. I am only refering to newer solid state radios with transistors. Old tube radios usaually have devices built into them to tune the radios finals impedance to match that of the input end of the coax. If you want to accomplish the same effect with your solid state radio, pick up a device known as a "antenna tuner". The term antenna tuner is misleading because it doesn't actually tune the antenna - or take the place of tuning the antenna - it simply lets the radio couple to the antenna system with better efficiency. Other more appropriate names for the antenna tuner are the transmatch or feedline flattener. If your SWR is low (below 2:1), don't expect to notice a (performance) difference from using an antenna tuner.

Question: Why do so many people recommend using 1/2 wave mutiples of coax? Will it really hurt me if I take the time to measure a 1/2 wavelengh multiple of coax?
Answer: The idea of using 1/2 wavelength multiples of coax comes from the fact that the antennas feedpoint impedance is "mirrored" at the input of the coax when using the said length. Many operator make / made the assumption that was a good thing because it was just like having the antenna hooked right to the radio / SWR meter. If anything other than a 1/2 wavelength mutiple is used, the impedance the radio / SWR meter sees is the antennas feedpoint impedance transformed to some other value of impedance. So, if your antenna has a feedpoint impedance of 25 Ohms and you use a 1/2 wavelength wave length of coax, the radio will "see" 25 Ohms in the input end of the coax. If you were to use some other length, say a 1/4 wavelength of 50 Ohm coax, the radio would "see" an impedance of 100 Ohm. What consequences does this have? None. Whether the impedance is 25 Ohms or 100 Ohms, the SWR is STILL 2:1. No matter what the 50 ohm line length, the resultant SWR is still 2:1...at the antennas feedpoint, at the input end of the coax and at any and every point along the coax line.

Many operators take half the truth of transmission line theory and make up their own rules. If you have been reading my page since its inception, you know I used to be "uneducated" when it came to transmission line theory. Sorry to admit I thought coax length was important. It was drilled into my head by somebody I respect(ed).

This isn't the easiest part of CB to wade through. Hopefully I've covered this with enough detail to set everyone straight. Many beginner amateur radio operators and students have misceptions and make false extrapolations in tranmission line theory. There are many conditions that must be stated when simplifying things. I have made one assumption here. I have been assumming the coax loss is negligible. At CB frequencies this is a pretty safe assumption to make.




http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/coax_basics.html

 

[PBR]

we all use "modified" hamm's, the range on them is great and so is the clarity. the only thing is that everyone you are with must have access to the same frequency.

we have some of these that are relativly inexpensive (not compared to cb's) and work very well:
http://www.icomamerica.com/products/amateur/v8000/

 

[Landshark]

we all use "modified" hamm's, the range on them is great and so is the clarity. the only thing is that everyone you are with must have access to the same frequency.

we have some of these that are relativly inexpensive (not compared to cb's) and work very well:
http://www.icomamerica.com/products/amateur/v8000/

You could also purchase a MURS set up, no licsense required

 

[roundhouse]

I thought everyone and their dog had a FRS or GMRS radio now.

If you get a CB, get it "Peaked and tuned" by someone that knows what they are doing.

and tune the antenna to match the vehicle, remember that removing the doors, or even opening the doors could affect the antenna tunage.

 

[Revelation]

OK you guys are making me miss my Modulated RCI2950 with a 500W heater...........................

 

[73stallion]

You could also purchase a MURS set up, no licsense required

what is a MURS setup?

 

[RedLeg0811]

Where do you have your antennas mounted?

 

[Landshark]

OK you guys are making me miss my Modulated RCI2950 with a 500W heater...........................

I prefer my Magnum 257 with Messenger 1200

 

[73stallion]

i have a big uniden hanging from my roll cage, and i'm going for my HAM license.

if you want compact, look into the cobra 75WXST. all you see is a handset and a cord, the con trols are built into the mike. the power box is hidden and the antenna hooks to that.

http://www.cobra.com/index.php?page=shop/flypage&product_id=5&id=1

 

[Landshark]

what is a MURS setup?

MURS (Multi use radio system) While they work great, the radio themselve's are a little expensive, but no licsense is required:

http://www.provide.net/~prsg/murs_faq.htm

 

[1sorbronc77]

Bought a Uniden bout a year ago..now it just sits in the tuffy box.. We find that yelling works just fine...lol ;D

 

[bigpappa]

OK, I know nothing about the subject so this may be a dumb question but I do not know the answer. If you are using a Hamm or a MURS can you still communicate with those running a regular CB?