EFI First start up no spark help UPDATE, she roars to life

[Timmy390]

I got everything done on my 351W-EFI conversion and went to start it today and I have no spark. I've got a wire crossed and hope someone can help tell me which one so I don't have to take this thing completely apart.

It's a 96 van 351W with the harness converted to 94-95 Mustang running a 94 Stang ECM TM04 chipped and tuned by "THE MAN" EFI_GUY

Fuel pump cycles fine and I can hear the gas trickle in the tank from the return. No codes from the ECM (111 system check OK).
Engine spins fine. Compression verified. Timing set a 0 for initial startup.

Tracked it down to no spark. Injectors are not firing either which I assume is due to the spark issue. Pulled plug and verified no spark when cranking. Plugs are dry. No smell of gas.

The remote TFI is a black module (from the van).
Wire colors are:
Black/white (ground)
Tan/Yellow (to neg side of coil and to tach)
Red/Green
White/pink
Pink
Gray/Orange

At the TFI connector, with TFI unplugged, and connector plugged in at the coil I have 12V to
Red/Green
Tan/Yellow

With the TFI plugged in, I have 12v on both sides of the coil (Red/Green and Tan/Yellow)

If I unplug the coil connector I only have 12v on the Red/Green wire

When cranking the engine, Nothing changes. 12V is constant on both wires. I used a test light on the neg side of the coil (light was on) and cranked the engine over and the light didn't flicker as I expected it to.

If I ground the Gray/Orange wire the fuel pump cycles.

I think I have a wire crossed or maybe a ground issue?

As I've been reading shouldn't the TFI get 12v when cranking (key in the start position to tell it to "start"? Which wire on the TFI should get this "push"?

Any suggestions and help I'm all ears.

Tim

 

[mtxride]

This brings back memories... I had a no spark issue a few years ago on my 89-93 EFI setup. I tried the test light on the coil as well. It lit when the ignition was on then would just dim, instead of flash, when cranking. It turned out to be a bad PIP in the distributor. I'm no expert on this and don't even know if this translates to the 94-95 stuff, but it could be something to check until someone more knowledgeable chimes in!

 

[ransil]

the Red/Green wire should get 12v in run and start.

Is the distributor in correctly, not 180 degrees out

are the plug wire on correctly?? #1 needs to go to the cap that says #1 make sure you are numbering the cylinders the Ford way not the chevy way

 

[brianstrange]

I may be wrong, but if you're running the 94-95 Mustang Computer, you need the Mustang (Black?) TFI, and they are wired different. It's been a while since I read up on this, and my wife's 94 is in storage. Another thing to point out is, this issue on a known running car is usually a TFI or bad computer. To be safe, I would pull the connector on the computer, and do a resistance test for all of the ign items. Keep in mind, pin 4 will require a 2000 ohm setting to read continuity due to the 33K resistor.

 

[Timmy390]

the Red/Green wire should get 12v in run and start and it does.
I have the black TFI and the part number crosses to the SN95
Plug wires are right and I don't think I'm 180 off. Even if the wires were crossed and I was 180 out, I would still have spark just at the wrong time and the injectors would be firing and they are not.

I can't work on it today. I've got a project at the high school (building a batting cage) so I'm out of pocket.

Has to be a wire crossed......Maybe I crossed something at the ECU when pinning it out for the final time.

Tim

 

[Bronco Brian]

Did mine Fired up ran shout off would not start again. Ended up being the pickup in the Dist. New Dist. all's been good.

 

[Timmy390]

I did manage to pin out the ECM today.

pins 4, 36, 56 and 16 are in the right spots and are correct on the plug.

Leaning to a ground issue with the ignition.

Anyone have a sure fire way to test the ignition ground?

Tim

 

[Timmy390]

Had the TFI module tested.....It's good. Still no spark

Tim

 

[mattt]

No spark and no injector clicking/pulse points to one thing.....the EEC does not know the engine is turning. As two before me said....pick up in the distributor is not working. I had same problem a few years ago too. The pick up is what indicates to the EEC that the engine is turning.

 

[Timmy390]

After ripping into it and finding some of the aluminum shielding damaged, I gave it a go and now smell fuel out the exhaust so that seems to indicate the injectors are firing.

I'm taking the harness off and going to lay it all out and see if I mislabeled a wire. Has to be something simple as I didn't change the wiring to the distributor or the TFI. The pins were the same on both the SN95 and the Van ECM so nothing changed there.

Maybe it is the distributor but not sure it could could just go bad sitting on the work bench. The van was running and driving when I pulled everything off.

Has to be something simple....The search continues

Tim

 

[mattt]

Rent the noid light set from an auto parts store, plug it into an injector plug and turn the engine over, try to start it. No flash of the noid light = EEC sends no injector pulse or spark. When the PIP isn't doing it's job, nothing(spark or fuel related) will happen to make it start.

Do you have another distributor you can plug in? It does not have to be in the engine.

 

[Timmy390]

I don't have a another distributor to try.

Noid light is a good call. I been meaning to buy one.....seems like a good time.

I did find one odd thing now that I have the harness out. Pin #2 in the distributor connector should be a ground. It's the ground that has the exposed wire that contacts the foil shielding. Per the remote TFI diagram I have, it should be a ground. Well it's not......I hooked up a spare battery to the ground's for the harness and with a test light I get nothing.......I can run a wire from the neg side of the battery to the exposed area of the wire and then test and get a good ground so something is amiss there.

Not sure that would keep it from starting....but I'm going to fix that....

Tim

 

[Timmy390]

OK, now I'm running in circles.

I'm using this wiring diagram to troubleshoot with
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/897594/fullsize/tfi-module-schematic--black-remote-mount.jpg

On the diagram/picture it shows a black line going from what appears to be pin #6 up to pin #2 and over to a ground. My distributor connector has no pin #6 however pin 2 is ground to the aluminum shielding.

Same thing for pins #4 and 8. I have no pin 4 only a pin #8 Pin 8 is ignition ground ECM pin 16

My connector only has pins in 1, 2, 3 7 and 8.

Does anyone have a diagram of the connector on the distributor ?

Tim

 

[mattt]

I think you are chasing your tail until you nail down whether the PIP in the distributor is doing it's job. Without the PIP, it will not run under any circumstance.

I asked about another distributor because that is how I nailed down what was wrong with mine. All I did was plug in the distributor TFI plug, laid it on the engine so it would ground, and held onto the distributor and spun the shaft by hand. When I did, it started clicking the injectors, flashing the noid light, because in that one the PIP was functional. Diagnose as you like, but it's easy to get "lost" in wiring for hours/days/millennia.

 

[brianstrange]

On the trucks, the case ground shielding comes from the distributor, on the Dist mount TFI cars, it's grounded at the ECM (computer) I'm pretty sure pin 46 uses that grounding point for your signal grounding. Pin 20 and the ign shielding should be grounded near the ECM. If not, that wire will be looking for ground at the distributor. Not seeing your harness, but understanding how they were wired, I would make sure they're connected properly.

EDIT: I was mixing up your issue with another I was following. I still would make sure that pin 20 is grounded, as well as pin 40 & 60

 

[Timmy390]

I think you are chasing your tail until you nail down whether the PIP in the distributor is doing it's job. Without the PIP, it will not run under any circumstance.

I asked about another distributor because that is how I nailed down what was wrong with mine. All I did was plug in the distributor TFI plug, laid it on the engine so it would ground, and held onto the distributor and spun the shaft by hand. When I did, it started clicking the injectors, flashing the noid light, because in that one the PIP was functional. Diagnose as you like, but it's easy to get "lost" in wiring for hours/days/millennia.

You're putting me on the right track. I just read a post over on a Big Bronco site where someone put together a "30 Minute Ignition System Test for Remote Mounted TFI Bronco". Well, I read through the article and I've done all the tests and I'm down to no PIP. I couldn't get my head around what told the system to "spark" when starting. I was all hung up on the old "push to start" TFI's were you had "start power in". I just needed PIP explained as the "trigger" for it to fire. I guess I was lost in the weeds for a bit. Love the idea of just spinning the spare distributor and seeing of the injectors fire. I'm going to pick up a new/rebuilt distributor tomorrow and give it a try. I mean I've tried everything else and I can't find any issues. Everything pins out and the ECM was verified good. Can't come to terms with that old distributor going bad just sitting on the bench but everything's pointing to it.

I still would make sure that pin 20 is grounded, as well as pin 40 & 60

Yup, They're grounded......The ignition Ground comes from ECM pin 16 and goes to the distributor pin #7 however that pin does not ground the shielding but I will give that another look tomorrow.

Tim

 

[mattt]

I completely understand not getting your head around how integral to the whole system working correctly the PIP is. I went round and round for about a week with this problem years ago. The PIP is the key piece that sets it all in motion. As for a distributor going bad from sitting on the bench, I will one up that with my newly rebuilt distributor. When I had the issue, my whole distributor had been rebuilt/refurbished, with a New PIP and verified good, but used Motorcraft TFI module. With how fresh everything was in the distributor, I did not look at it and I lost that week I mentioned, because "Well of course, it can't be anything in the distributor." Nope, it was the NEW PIP, dead out of the box. The rebuilder put an original Motorcraft PIP in it and the rest is history...engine, suck, squeeze, bang, blow.

I had an MSD distributor sitting around that I ended up not using. I was banging my head against the wall, going in circles, that is when I had the idea to just "wire-in, plug-in" the MSD and turn the shaft. When it did start doing what it should, the clicking and flashing kinda startled me, but I figured it out right then and there. Good luck.

 

[Timmy390]

Work is getting in the way of progress.......

At lunch I ran out and got a new distributor and bought a Noid Light and IAC Tester.

Hope to do some testing this afternoon.

Tim

 

[mattt]

Keep us posted on what you find. My local Autozone had noid lights on the loaner tool program.

 

[Timmy390]

Well I through the harness back on and moved the adapter and cap over to the new distributor minus the rotor. Put a spark tester (I bought one at lunch $5 at HF) between the coil and the distributor cap. Put the ECM back on, powered everything up and........

Wait for it.......

I have spark and the injectors are firing per the Noid light. Lots of clicking going on under the hood when I spin the new distributor.

Got to looking at the old distributor with the adapter off and the pickup/hall effect sensor was crusted over. It was like there was metal/dirt and sludge on it. I took a shop towel and cleaned it. It came right off but it was really dirty. Not sure how it went from working in the van (I did drive the van into the shop to pull the engine) to not working just sitting on the work bench but it appears it did.

I'm going to put everything back together and give the old distributor a try and see if I get spark from it now that it's clean. If no spark I'll swap the distributors out.

Love this place and the people here........The willingness to help is just incredible

Will post back when it roars to live or with my next issue. GOD hope I'm not 180 out....but with my luck I will be.

Tim