Frames value

[jamesroney]

OK, let me change the situation a little. You have a title AND glovebox door from a wreck. You buy an aftermarket frame, and use the frame in a build. Do you "own" the title, yes or no?

In your example, the guy with the frame is holding all the power. I would argue that without the frame AND title, you are on the same footing as a guy with just a title.

What's stopping someone from re-stamping a frame with a known VIN # (they are all over the internet), and getting a bonded title?

Hello.

90% of everything in this thread is fake news. But there is also a hint of truth. I wasn't going to jump in, but there are just too many absolutes being mentioned here, and the law is just not that absolute. Fake news is defined as statements that are Factually Accurate, but misleading, or not applicable, or missing exculpatory or contradictory facts.

For your question here, you state: "You have a title and glovebox door from a wreck..." But you do NOT state where is the original frame. Absent that information, it is impossible to answer your question. So here is a different truth for your hypothetical:

a. The original frame exists. No, you do not "own" the title. In the event of a dispute, the legal owner of the title for that vin is the person that legally possesses the frame. This is why @thegreatjustino is 100% correct for this scenario. If the original frame exists, then the person that possesses that frame can secure a legal title to that frame.
b. The original frame does NOT exist. Yes, you own the title. In the event of a dispute, there can be no dispute, because no one has a claim to dispute against you. This is why @thegreatjustino is incorrect for this scenario.
c. The original frame status is unknown. Does your new frame have a vin stamp on it that meets the NATB requirements for your make and model? If so, then you are at risk to lose your clone, you have no claim to the title, and you are guilty of VIN tampering.

The guy with the frame IS holding all of the power. Unless the guy holding the title and glovebox has a receipt for his purchase. At that point, the issue is no longer criminal, but becomes an Civil issue, and possibly fraud. So absent any other documentation, the guy with the frame is the owner. But a Title is documentation, and if the guy with the frame signed the title and sold it to you and then tried to revive the frame...then he is an idiot.

Re-stamping a frame in the way you describe is a violation of Federal Law and is the very definition of Vin Tampering. Using that information to secure a Title requires you to perjure yourself numerous times. Securing a bonded title under false pretenses is also illegal. Selling that vehicle in the future is fraud.

This is why these "builders" are so cagey about what they are doing. They are not just using the old VIN number. They are obliterating the old frame VIN. Which is also destruction of evidence.

@toddz69 you are right. They are not allowed to do this. There is a legal way to achieve the same end result, but I am not about to post it on a public forum. Suffice it to say that plenty of people are rotting in prison for the kind of things being discussed here. And plenty are not.

Next question?

 

[bronco italiano]

The frame manufacturers will stamp a frame with your VIN as long as you can prove you're the legal owner of that VIN. Why do you think the high end builders advertise in Bronco Driver magazine about wanting to buy your frame? They buy a frame with a title, scrap the frame, use the title to stamp the new frame, and build a brand new classic Bronco complete with 50 year old VIN keeping it from being a kit car title.

What builders are advertising for frames on BD? I don't recall seeing that

 

[big blue]

On Facebook they are looking for titles , frames and glove boxes.

 

[thegreatjustino]

What builders are advertising for frames on BD? I don't recall seeing that

 

[mebco09]

Hello.

90% of everything in this thread is fake news. But there is also a hint of truth. I wasn't going to jump in, but there are just too many absolutes being mentioned here, and the law is just not that absolute. Fake news is defined as statements that are Factually Accurate, but misleading, or not applicable, or missing exculpatory or contradictory facts.

For your question here, you state: "You have a title and glovebox door from a wreck..." But you do NOT state where is the original frame. Absent that information, it is impossible to answer your question. So here is a different truth for your hypothetical:

a. The original frame exists. No, you do not "own" the title. In the event of a dispute, the legal owner of the title for that vin is the person that legally possesses the frame. This is why @thegreatjustino is 100% correct for this scenario. If the original frame exists, then the person that possesses that frame can secure a legal title to that frame.
b. The original frame does NOT exist. Yes, you own the title. In the event of a dispute, there can be no dispute, because no one has a claim to dispute against you. This is why @thegreatjustino is incorrect for this scenario.
c. The original frame status is unknown. Does your new frame have a vin stamp on it that meets the NATB requirements for your make and model? If so, then you are at risk to lose your clone, you have no claim to the title, and you are guilty of VIN tampering.

The guy with the frame IS holding all of the power. Unless the guy holding the title and glovebox has a receipt for his purchase. At that point, the issue is no longer criminal, but becomes an Civil issue, and possibly fraud. So absent any other documentation, the guy with the frame is the owner. But a Title is documentation, and if the guy with the frame signed the title and sold it to you and then tried to revive the frame...then he is an idiot.


Next question?

Wait a minute, If you have a SIGNED original title from the title holder of record, wouldn't you also be the "owner" of the frame as well? I get that possession is 9/10s, but in this case, how could you have a claim of ownership of the VIN when you don't possess the paperwork to establish the chain-of-title?

I would think that having a signed title would trump possession, would it not?

 

[thegreatjustino]

Wait a minute, If you have a SIGNED original title from the title holder of record, wouldn't you also be the "owner" of the frame as well? I get that possession is 9/10s, but in this case, how could you have a claim of ownership of the VIN when you don't possess the paperwork to establish the chain-of-title?

I would think that having a signed title would trump possession, would it not?

As he says in his post, at this point it becomes a civil matter.

 

[Broncoblood]

keep every Bronco away from Velocity, Icon and all those other poachers that our killing our breed.

 

[jamesroney]

Wait a minute, If you have a SIGNED original title from the title holder of record, wouldn't you also be the "owner" of the frame as well? I get that possession is 9/10s, but in this case, how could you have a claim of ownership of the VIN when you don't possess the paperwork to establish the chain-of-title?

I would think that having a signed title would trump possession, would it not?

Not necessarily.

Here's a scenario. Able sells a body, and title to an Early Bronco to Baker. Able signs the title, and Baker takes possession of the body. Able later sells the frame to Charlie on a bill of sale.
Charlie purchases a replacement body tub and makes the old frame into a Bronco. Charlie goes to the local DMV with a proper VIN in the proper location, and has a bill of sale from Able. A transfer of title with replacement title (REG227 in CA) and a Vin Verification from DMV and Charlie is issued a new Certificate of Ownership and receives a Title in the mail.

Since it is a small town, Able, Baker and Charlie all know each other. Charlie shows up at Baker's house and shows off his new Bronco, with title, registration, and ownership certificate. Baker is not happy. He shows Charlie his signed title, and his Vehicle Warranty Data Plate. Baker calls Law Enforcement. Sheriff David arrives.

David asks each what they have:

Charlie has a validated registration card, a title, and a vehicle with an original and unmolested VIN stamped in the proper location.
Baker has an old signed title and some sheet metal.
Able has a few dollars in his pocket.

David asks Baker, "Did you transfer title?" Baker replies: "No, I never really had possession of a vehicle, but I didn't care, because I was only going to use the VIN to swap onto another Bronco because..." At this point, David tells Baker to consult an attorney. Baker has cause for civil action against Able, but Charlie is free and clear with his new Bronco.

The opposite of this scenario can also work. There was a recent listing of a Shelby where the VIN number was posted on an internet sales forum. The original owner of the Shelby recognized his old car, and his VIN. That vehicle was reported stolen in the early 70's. Ownership was transferred to the insurance company when they paid out on the claim. 40 years later, when the vehicle was advertised, it had changed hands numerous times. The buyer, and the seller were working on the transaction. The Sheriff impounded the Shelby, and it was released to the insurance company. The insurance company never had title. But they owned that VIN. And they received everything attached to the Vin Plate at the time of impound. No compensation. Buyer had to sue seller. But this only works if your hands are "clean." Anyone that buys a glove box door and a title is not "clean."

 

[Wild horse 75]

So what do you do in a situation where you hold everything but the frame and body are garbage? Like you have a clear title, the original glove box door, drivers door pillar with the paper tag in place and original frame with verified VIN. How would you be able to go about building what you own? Aftermarket frames are a thing as a re aftermarket bodies. Having a clean title and all the accompanying things should let me rebuild what I own. Chevrolet didn’t VIN their frames back in the 60’s and 70’s so the only thing you would need is the tag from the pillar or firewall.

 

[bmc69]

Hello.

90% of everything in this thread is fake news.

Next question?

My posts too?

 

[thegreatjustino]

The insurance company never had title.

You have to sign and send the title to the insurance company for them to pay out.

 

[thegreatjustino]

Having a clean title and all the accompanying things should let me rebuild what I own.

Perfectly legal if done correctly. Have a VIN verification done, have the new frame stamped with the old vin, destroy the old frame, have a brand new EB with your VIN. All done legally and on the up and up.

For the umpteenth time in this thread, why do you think the big builders advertise looking to buy frames and VINs?

 

[Wild horse 75]

Perfectly legal if done correctly. Have a VIN verification done, have the new frame stamped with the old vin, destroy the old frame, have a brand new EB with your VIN. All done legally and on the up and up.

For the umpteenth time in this thread, why do you think the big builders advertise looking to buy frames and VINs?

That’s what my plan is. I’ve already verified the VIN with our insurance corporation who’s in charge of vehicle registration. So I know it’s all in the clear. Just when people start mentioning felonies for stamping a VIN I start wondering if I’ll be able to sell this in the future in the US without having problems.

 

[Slowleak]

I wouldn’t do any of that without consulting the DMV first. Requirements and laws vary by state. All they can do is tell you the right way to do it. If you have already done it, there is a lot they can do!

 

[Wild horse 75]

I’m not in the US. Here our “DMV” so to speak looks at the glove box plate as the VIN. I’m not worried about me registering it here and driving it. It’s more for in the future when I go to sell. There isn’t the money here so to get a good price I‘m going to have to list it for sale in the US as well. And I don’t want to create problems for myself trying to sell in the future.

 

[hsach]

I wouldn’t do any of that without consulting the DMV first. Requirements and laws vary by state. All they can do is tell you the right way to do it. If you have already done it, there is a lot they can do!

This should be the first step if you have any questions about title/frame/ownership. I can answer one specific question in this thread for Nevada. Someone asked if you put a new frame on your old bronco, how is it taxed at registration? I asked the Nevada DMV this same question and they said if I had to scrap my old frame and buy a new one, my registration would be classified as an ASSEMBLE VEHICLE, and the current year it is registered and titled will be the model year of the vehicle. I didn't ask how the value is determined for taxing purposes at the time or registration. This info was given to me in August 2021, things may have changed though. Needless to say, I am using my old frame for the restore.

 

[Slowleak]

I’m not in the US. Here our “DMV” so to speak looks at the glove box plate as the VIN. I’m not worried about me registering it here and driving it. It’s more for in the future when I go to sell. There isn’t the money here so to get a good price I‘m going to have to list it for sale in the US as well. And I don’t want to create problems for myself trying to sell in the future.

Then I would just keep the old frame in case any titling issues come up if you sell in the US. At least you would have proof that it is not in use by someone else….

 

[bmc69]

I’m not in the US. Here our “DMV” so to speak looks at the glove box plate as the VIN. I’m not worried about me registering it here and driving it. It’s more for in the future when I go to sell. There isn’t the money here so to get a good price I‘m going to have to list it for sale in the US as well. And I don’t want to create problems for myself trying to sell in the future.

Here in the US...lazy and/or uninformed inspectors have certified MANY a vehicle using the wrong ID source. Does not cost them anything...why would they care?

 

[bronco italiano]

Icon would accept the frame section with the VIN stamping/Title
It seems the frame VIN/Title is really all one needs.

 

[xcovelectric]

Not necessarily.

Here's a scenario. Able sells a body, and title to an Early Bronco to Baker. Able signs the title, and Baker takes possession of the body. Able later sells the frame to Charlie on a bill of sale.
Charlie purchases a replacement body tub and makes the old frame into a Bronco. Charlie goes to the local DMV with a proper VIN in the proper location, and has a bill of sale from Able. A transfer of title with replacement title (REG227 in CA) and a Vin Verification from DMV and Charlie is issued a new Certificate of Ownership and receives a Title in the mail.

Since it is a small town, Able, Baker and Charlie all know each other. Charlie shows up at Baker's house and shows off his new Bronco, with title, registration, and ownership certificate. Baker is not happy. He shows Charlie his signed title, and his Vehicle Warranty Data Plate. Baker calls Law Enforcement. Sheriff David arrives.

David asks each what they have:

Charlie has a validated registration card, a title, and a vehicle with an original and unmolested VIN stamped in the proper location.
Baker has an old signed title and some sheet metal.
Able has a few dollars in his pocket.

David asks Baker, "Did you transfer title?" Baker replies: "No, I never really had possession of a vehicle, but I didn't care, because I was only going to use the VIN to swap onto another Bronco because..." At this point, David tells Baker to consult an attorney. Baker has cause for civil action against Able, but Charlie is free and clear with his new Bronco.

The opposite of this scenario can also work. There was a recent listing of a Shelby where the VIN number was posted on an internet sales forum. The original owner of the Shelby recognized his old car, and his VIN. That vehicle was reported stolen in the early 70's. Ownership was transferred to the insurance company when they paid out on the claim. 40 years later, when the vehicle was advertised, it had changed hands numerous times. The buyer, and the seller were working on the transaction. The Sheriff impounded the Shelby, and it was released to the insurance company. The insurance company never had title. But they owned that VIN. And they received everything attached to the Vin Plate at the time of impound. No compensation. Buyer had to sue seller. But this only works if your hands are "clean." Anyone that buys a glove box door and a title is not "clean."

Thank you for posting that and some people don’t understand that the vin stamped in the original frame is what the police will go by and whoever buys the title and glovebox door is screwd lol