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Hidden Heater Control Valve

DirtDonk

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No, no, no.
The door flap does not modulate temperature. It simply allows and modulates air flow of either the cool air coming through the heater core when the temperature control valve under the hood is off/closed, or warm air when coolant is allowed to flow through the heater core by pulling the temperature control knob that opens the valve under the hood.
If you pull the knob part way, it gets warm. If you pull it all the way it gets hot.
Period…
 

bigmuddy

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No, no, no.
The door flap does not modulate temperature. It simply allows and modulates air flow of either the cool air coming through the heater core when the temperature control valve under the hood is off/closed, or warm air when coolant is allowed to flow through the heater core by pulling the temperature control knob that opens the valve under the hood.
If you pull the knob part way, it gets warm. If you pull it all the way it gets hot.
Period…
Donk, we have either hit the no your wrong part of this conversation or we are saying the same thing:rolleyes:
The control valve allows hot water into the heater core this we agree on.
Modulation of air flow with the flap is essentially a poor man's mixing door in my mind, Maybe that makes sense? Don't have to agree, but that's the way I have cooled or warmed the interior for 30 years.
 

MarsChariot

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Not trying to be a smart alec here, but I have never understood what is so difficult about "pull for heat". The wife and I have a running joke about it. Here is the owne's manua; description. The center knob controls the flap. The right knob modulates the valve controlling the water flow.
 

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ba123

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I think you guys are all saying the same exact thing just in different ways.

@MarsChariot i think the only difficult thing about that pull for heat is if someone doesn’t understand that it’s gradually opening a valve and gradually increasing the heat as you pull because it gradually increases the flow of hot water from the engine.
 

Steve83

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I believe the right knob for temp just modulates the door/flap allowing hot air into the cabin...
Then why have speeds for the blower motor? Turn the motor on, and use the flap to control how much air flows. Or why have the flap? Just use the motor speed to control how much air flows. This is what I don't get - they seem redundant, or counterproductive (if the flap is closed & the blower is on HI), which is not common in Ford designs. I can't figure out why the flap is there since the blower resistor does essentially the same thing.
...modulates air flow...
If you pull the knob part way, it gets warm. If you pull it all the way it gets hot.
Why would it need to be modulated, when it's controlled by blower speed? And pulling the TEMP knob will have exactly zero effect on the air temperature, unless the valve is open, to some degree. And that degree of opening directly affects the temperature, so we have redundancy again.
...a poor man's mixing door...
But it doesn't mix anything, unless there's a way for air to bypass the heater core and still be pulled through the blower.
The center knob controls the flap.
Yeah, but what exactly does the FLAP control? That's why I was hoping for pics or a better diagram of the blower box. No one has pics of one out of the truck and taken apart?
 

DirtDonk

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I think you guys are all saying the same exact thing just in different ways.
But only sometimes…
@MarsChariot i think the only difficult thing about that pull for heat is if someone doesn’t understand that it’s gradually opening a valve and gradually increasing the heat as you pull because it gradually increases the flow of hot water from the engine.
there, you just said it wrong again.
Maybe….
The pull for heat is not opening a valve. At least not the heater control valve under the hood.
It is opening and closing a damper door only.
It does not increase or decrease the flow of hot water from the engine.
That is solely the job of the heater control valve under the hood.
Which is controlled by the TEMP knob.
 

DirtDonk

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Then why have speeds for the blower motor? Turn the motor on, and use the flap to control how much air flows. Or why have the flap? Just use the motor speed to control how much air flows. This is what I don't get - they seem redundant, or counterproductive (if the flap is closed & the blower is on HI), which is not common in Ford designs. I can't figure out why the flap is there since the blower resistor does essentially the same thing.
The way the system is put together, if there was no flap, then you would have air flowing out of the heater anytime the vehicle is moving. Fan on, or not.
Note the “vent” scenario I mentioned earlier.

And if your heater control valve under the hood was not fully stopping the flow of coolant, that air coming out of the heater system when the vehicle is moving, would always be hot. Summertime or not.
Why would it need to be modulated, when it's controlled by blower speed?
With the door closed, the fan doesn’t really do much. If anything.
And pulling the TEMP knob will have exactly zero effect on the air temperature, unless the valve is open, to some degree. And that degree of opening directly affects the temperature, so we have redundancy again.
Pulling the temp knob all the way out lets coolant flow through the heater core relatively unrestricted.
With the door flapper closed none of that heat flows out of the heater. It still heats up the area around the core, eventually being felt inside the passenger compartment. But it’s not due to airflow.
Just radiant heat.
But it doesn't mix anything, unless there's a way for air to bypass the heater core and still be pulled through the blower.
Correct. It doesn’t really mix in the usual sense.
Outside air is flowing, or trying to flow through the hood vent, through the kick panel hose, into the heater core and the fan area.
It is essentially stopped at the damper door and is only allowed to actually flow through and out of either the heater or defroster duct when the flapper door is open.
Partially open, lets a little flow through, and more open lets more flow through.
Fan operating, or not. If the damper door is open, at least a little, and the vehicle is moving, you have air flowing through the heater system. The fan is only there to make that air velocity/volume greater than the natural flow coming through the hood vent.
Especially handy when the vehicle is sitting still, but since the natural air flow is not that powerful anyway, the fan greatly strengthens that flow.
Whether the air flowing through is heated by the heater core or not, depends entirely on how far out the TEMP knob is pulled and how far the heater control valve is opened.
Yeah, but what exactly does the FLAP control? That's why I was hoping for pics or a better diagram of the blower box. No one has pics of one out of the truck and taken apart?
It only controls airflow from one side of the Plenum to the other. On one side of the door is the motor and heater core. On the other side are the air outlets either for the heater towards the floor or defrost towards the window.
Along those lines, how far out you pull the defrost knob dictates whether all of the air goes one way, or the other, or only part of it.
You can pull it out halfway and have both the defroster and heater working.
I guess that’s the 60s version of a blend door? 🙄

I’m pretty sure there have been some good assembly pics taken over the years here. But I’ve never kept any handy.
Hopefully someone will have them archived.
 
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DirtDonk

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What system did you use on Frank’s bronco Steve?
Seems I remember you heavily modified the dash and interior.
And maybe you don’t have that bronco nearby to check, but somebody must have one that they can manipulate to show what all is going on.
It’s really a rather simple and basic system. Not hard to understand as we are making it out to be.
 

anoblefox

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Well I don't know but perhaps it is just me; (I am old and have owned a Bronco since 73) but I do not understand the need for heat control valve. The cable sticking and hard to operate has always been problematic for me. It seems either you need heat or you don't. I replaced mine with a vacuum operated heat control valve. When I need heat I turn it on, otherwise it is off with no flow through system, easy peasy
 

ba123

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But only sometimes…

there, you just said it wrong again.
Maybe….
The pull for heat is not opening a valve. At least not the heater control valve under the hood.
It is opening and closing a damper door only.
It does not increase or decrease the flow of hot water from the engine.
That is solely the job of the heater control valve under the hood.
Which is controlled by the TEMP knob.
Yes, totally agree on the only sometimes part.

As far as the pull, sorry, yes, I was talking about the temp control knob and got messed up...you are right. Maybe they just chose bad names for the knobs.

and yes, the pull for heat knob just makes air flow through that core to let the hot air flow.

I understand it completely and I still wrote it wrong. Looking forward to my Vintage Air system....if I ever get there.

Maybe that's the biggest problem on this thread. The transfer of information from your brain onto these pages (or at least that seems to be my problem).

Nice catch Paul.
 

DirtDonk

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Well, I kind of did the same thing.
The line that Steve quoted earlier was me saying, pull the knob, referring to the TEMP knob. But reading back it looked like I was referring to the pull for heat knob.
 

ba123

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So then I should change what I said on another line where I said that we were all saying the same thing,,

I should’ve written, we are all THINKING the same thing!

Haha.
 

Steve83

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...if there was no flap, then you would have air flowing out of the heater anytime the vehicle is moving. Fan on, or not.
...which is exactly how Ford & most other automakers design vehicle ventilation. The vehicle's forward motion forces air through the passenger cabin. So again: I don't get why Ford would put a flap there to stop it. Usually, I can figure out why things are built the way they are, but this is just IRKING me! :D
Pulling the temp knob all the way out...With the door flapper closed none of that heat flows out of the heater. It still heats up the area around the core...
That's what I mean about being counterproductive - why would you ever need to open the valve, but close the flap (whether the blower is running or not)? I would ALMOST understand if the door was spring-loaded to close almost touching the blower wheel, so that as soon as the motor started (at any speed), it would blow the door open.
...how far out you pull the defrost knob dictates whether all of the air goes one way, or the other, or only part of it.
You can pull it out halfway and have both the defroster and heater working.
I guess that’s the 60s version of a blend door?
That's the ALWAYS meaning of a blend/diverter door. But generally, a "blend" door TAKES air from 2 sources (like heater core/bypass), while a "diverter" door SENDS air 2 directions (like defrost/floor).
What system did you use on Frank’s bronco Steve?
Some aftermarket thing (probably Vintage Air) that the PO had halfassed into it. The dash was already butchered for its control panel, so Frank didn't want to go to the trouble or expense of un-doing that. Even when the heater core blew forcing us to replace the main box (because they GLUE the housing together so you can't replace just the cores), he wouldn't let me build something, so I re-arranged the aftermarket one for better airflow & function.
 

ba123

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...which is exactly how Ford & most other automakers design vehicle ventilation. The vehicle's forward motion forces air through the passenger cabin. So again: I don't get why Ford would put a flap there to stop it. Usually, I can figure out why things are built the way they are, but this is just IRKING me! :D

That's what I mean about being counterproductive - why would you ever need to open the valve, but close the flap (whether the blower is running or not)?

That's the ALWAYS meaning of a blend/diverter door. But generally, a "blend" door TAKES air from 2 sources (like heater core/bypass), while a "diverter" door SENDS air 2 directions (like defrost/floor).

Some aftermarket thing (probably Vintage Air) that the PO had halfassed into it. The dash was already butchered for its control panel, so Frank didn't want to go to the trouble or expense of un-doing that. Even when the heater core blew forcing us to replace the main box (because they GLUE the housing together so you can't replace just the cores), he wouldn't let me build something, so I re-arranged the aftermarket one for better airflow & function.
A) I don’t agree. Air doesn’t just flow through any vehicle I’ve ever had unless something isn’t working right, maybe we’ve had different cars; well, actually air flowed very freely on my motorcycles so I guess so. You have to set the vents to open, which is what you do with the flap in most cars.
B) if your engine is overheating on a hot day, you’d do this, but the system is designed to do both together.
C) Ford doesn’t call it a blend, yes, Paul did (he prob meant diverter) but it’s called a defrost and that’s all it controls—to what extent the air goes to the defrost, none, some or all.
 

DirtDonk

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...which is exactly how Ford & most other automakers design vehicle ventilation. The vehicle's forward motion forces air through the passenger cabin. So again: I don't get why Ford would put a flap there to stop it. Usually, I can figure out why things are built the way they are, but this is just IRKING me! :D

That's what I mean about being counterproductive - why would you ever need to open the valve, but close the flap (whether the blower is running or not)? I would ALMOST understand if the door was spring-loaded to close almost touching the blower wheel, so that as soon as the motor started (at any speed), it would blow the door open.

That's the ALWAYS meaning of a blend/diverter door. But generally, a "blend" door TAKES air from 2 sources (like heater core/bypass), while a "diverter" door SENDS air 2 directions (like defrost/floor).
You're right. Diverter, not blend.

Why would anyone want the ability to open or close the door? Why would anyone want no control over unrestricted, outside, unfiltered, unconditioned air flowing when they did not want it?
Think dust storms and hog farm neighborhoods... You'd want it closed. (not that a leaky Bronco would seal it all out, but why make it worse?
Think super-hot days crossing the desert... Or just a nice hot day when you want air. You'd want the door open to add one more vent opening to the interior to aid flow from the two wing vents, the driver's foot vent and any open windows you happened to have.
With the hard top on, there's not much flow inside a Bronco's interior. Raising the rear lift-gate/window and pinning/bolting the struts in position helps this greatly.
But some of these things (passenger vent-wing, rear lift-gate) are not manually accessible from the driver's seat while driving. The left vent-wing/wing-vent, driver's hood/floor/firewall vent AND the passenger side hood "vent" inlet are accessible to the driver.
Think moderate temperature days when you don't need the heater on full blast, don't want the wing windows blasting your new hairdo, don't want the noise of traffic blaring through open windows, but would like a little more air flowing into the cabin. Pull-For-Heat obliges you accordingly.
Think mild winter and would like some warm air coming in from residual heat in the core. You can Pull-For-Heat but leave the TEMP all the way in and usually get just a mild warm glow from the heater core because the temperature control valve under the hood never seems to isolate the core completely from the flow of hot coolant. Open the vent, gently warmed air comes right in.
Need more heat? Pull the TEMP knob out further.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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I mention opening it as a simple vent in two separate scenarios. Cooling and mild heating.
For cooling, you need to be one of the lucky few who's heater control valve under the hood does manage to keep the coolant from flowing to the core. Otherwise you really do not want to open the "passenger vent" because it simply introduces a little more heat to an already over hot interior.
But if you are lucky enough to have a cool heater core, you can use it as a vent.

Even with brand new old-school brass valves, mine was middle of the road. So I used it on cool days when I really did not need that much heat, but left it fully closed on hot days because it was a nice gentle heat coming out with just the air flowing through the hood vent.
No fan noise, no excess heat, just a little warmer than outside.

Paul
 

Speedrdr

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Well, THIS discussion certainly clears things up……..
I certainly don’t remember diving off in the weeds this deep with the 72 I had. It was easier to just push/pull/turn the knobs until the temp was reasonably comfortable.
As far as having to replace the whole box when a heater core went bad, I replaced the core in the 72 and that’s ALL I replaced. Maybe that year was built differently or something.
 

DirtDonk

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Nope. All the same. Probably even '66, but I can't promise anything with a '66!

Don't remember anyone saying you had to replace the whole box. Just when updating to aftermarket A/C as it's currently made would be the only reason i can think of. Even an old busted up plenum can be replaced with new parts these days.
Reasons for taking the whole thing apart might be to fix cracks, insulate the interior and exterior to reduce noise and errant heat when you don't want it. And maybe to paint the exterior.
Otherwise, the core and the seals are the only common thread from years past to now.

And yes to simply adjusting everything to your satisfaction using one, two or three of the control knobs.

Paul
 
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