Mustang Charcoal Canister/Purge Solenoid…MS3

[ba123]

I know the evap system has been covered severely, but a couple hopefully new questions (I think) since I do not believe this situation is exactly covered. I did see a relatively similar scenario from @pcf_mark here: https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/efi-fuel-smell-fuel-pressure-drop.278768/
but not really. Mark, do you still not have a canister at all? Did you fix your fuel issue? Still have a stock tank?

I have a 23 gallon Efi tank from NWMP. It has fill, vent, evap connections.

So, running MS3, I got everything to run a charcoal canister for a stock Mustang 5.0 setup thinking that was ideal for me but now that I have everything I realize that Megasquirt doesn’t support it. It might be possible for me to program the function to an output but also curious if that’s more effort than it will be worth. Like, how many volts does the valve need, when does it turn on…

I did already have worries cause I don’t want it visible so was debating between the rear of a wheel well or inside the back frame and the tank crossmember.

I was planning on using the canister because I do not want fuel smell, but maybe I won’t have the smell anyway…? What else can I do as an alternative to try first? I could easily return all this stuff I just got.

 

[73azbronco]

CanP system is 12v, powered by the canp evap relays.

From my memory of reading the entire ford efi fuel injection book, yeah, slow winter then, the purge only occurs for a few minutes after start. It might kick on at other times but I do not recall it.

Lacking canp/evap, the old school EB canister being sucked into inlet air outside of air cleaner did the job fine i think. I'm using that, but not yet installed.

 

[ba123]

CanP system is 12v, powered by the canp evap relays.

From my memory of reading the entire ford efi fuel injection book, yeah, slow winter then, the purge only occurs for a few minutes after start. It might kick on at other times but I do not recall it.

Lacking canp/evap, the old school EB canister being sucked into inlet air outside of air cleaner did the job fine i think. I'm using that, but not yet installed.

Haha, thanks! I totally forgot about that book. I read it too many years ago and don’t really want to look at it again! It’s around here somewhere though. I might be able to program making it come on at ACC and run for a time period but hoping for another solution since I also see that my Ron Francis wiring comes with the connector that connects to the connector that connects to the solenoid! So I guess I don’t have everything.

 

[73azbronco]

WEhen I bought mine they were $100 plus, now 30-60

 

[ba123]

I just bought all this stuff new
Rockauto:
Canister $54.79
Purge Valve $34.79

LMR:
Canister caps $9.99
Canister bracket $29.99
Hose kit $15.99

I'll likely be returning but would love to hear if there is some other way to make sure I don't get the gas smell issue. It's been too many years since my original swap and don't even remember if I ran the canister, but I also had the original tanks back then and didn't park in a garage either...

 

[DirtDonk]

I’d still run it and then at least you’d have a better chance at not having fumes.
If your computer won’t control the purge valve, just return the valve and plumb it in like 99% of the other modified Broncos have.
In other words, as 73az said, just like an early bronco because they were all before computers.

 

[pcf_mark]

I know the evap system has been covered severely, but a couple hopefully new questions (I think) since I do not believe this situation is exactly covered. I did see a relatively similar scenario from @pcf_mark here: https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/efi-fuel-smell-fuel-pressure-drop.278768/
but not really. Mark, do you still not have a canister at all? Did you fix your fuel issue? Still have a stock tank?

I have a 23 gallon Efi tank from NWMP. It has fill, vent, evap connections.

So, running MS3, I got everything to run a charcoal canister for a stock Mustang 5.0 setup thinking that was ideal for me but now that I have everything I realize that Megasquirt doesn’t support it. It might be possible for me to program the function to an output but also curious if that’s more effort than it will be worth. Like, how many volts does the valve need, when does it turn on…

I did already have worries cause I don’t want it visible so was debating between the rear of a wheel well or inside the back frame and the tank crossmember.

I was planning on using the canister because I do not want fuel smell, but maybe I won’t have the smell anyway…? What else can I do as an alternative to try first? I could easily return all this stuff I just got.

I still have my fuel smell and I run a closed (non-vented) system. I am fairly sure I have a leaky injector(s) since the smell dissipates after an hour or so. On a hot day my gas cap is tough to get off and you can hear "swoosh" as it equalizes.

 

[ba123]

I’d still run it and then at least you’d have a better chance at not having fumes.
If your computer won’t control the purge valve, just return the valve and plumb it in like 99% of the other modified Broncos have.
In other words, as 73az said, just like an early bronco because they were all before computers.

Ok. I'll try to figure out how to make it work with the computer if I can.

Any idea if either of those spots is high enough? (frame rail near tank or behind pass front wheel). I'd love to put it in the rear fenderwell (since I got the 4 WH fenderwell covers) but it's too big.

 

[ba123]

Also though, with a rollover vent valve in the tail section or the inner fender, would the canister even do anything? How would vapors go there versus the vent valve since the valve is open unless fuel goes up there and closes the check valve?

Please help me understand what I'm missing.

 

[DirtDonk]

A rollover valve should not block the tank from venting normally.
And the normal venting is what is going on that we're trying to capture/stop the fuel vapors from getting out into the atmosphere.

You can mount the Mustang style canister on the firewall normally (like they did for '76 and '77 Broncos) but that does not seem likely in your case. Too much engine, and wanting to keep a clean and tidy compartment.
Another reasonable spot is on the passenger side (or either one really) front fender area. On the frame in front of the spring. If you push it far enough forward, it's usually fairly out of sight of prying eyes.
The more suspension goodies you have under there, the more hidden the canister can be. Heck, you could mount it behind the spring tower if there is enough room to the sheet metal.
I haven't tried it, but maybe even behind the wheel, up in the body cavity by the kick panel? Seems like there might be just enough room to wedge it up there.

Any of those positions are high enough for normal use. Unless you're going to be off-roading a lot, where you might park with the nose downhill. But then, that's what the rollover valve is supposed to stop anyway.

Without the CAN-P circuit in the computer, your plumbing is simple.

Scenario A:
1. Small tube from tank vent to canister.
2. Medium fitting capped.
3. First large fitting topped off with "mushroom" vent cap.
4. Flex hose from second large fitting up to inlet system/air cleaner.

Scenario B:
1. Small tube from tank vent to canister.
2. Medium fitting to inlet system.
3. Both large tube fittings topped off with mushroom vent caps.

In either of these setups, you do NOT connect anything to manifold vacuum.
The hose that you decide to run up to the intake system, is to the area between the MAF sensor and air filter. Whether this is the filter base itself, or whatever length of tubing you have in front of the MAF sensor, you want it before the MAF and not after.
This way it can all be accounted for by the computer and 02 sensors.
Anywhere after the MAF and it's un-metered air and fuel. Anywhere behind the Throttle Body, at full vacuum, is not only un-metered air, but also a vacuum leak.
It's also the most likely to suck liquid gas into the canister where you don't want it.

It's probably more efficient to hook it to vacuum, but ONLY if the computer is able to control it through the CAN-P circuit and solenoid valve.

Paul

 

[ba123]

A rollover valve should not block the tank from venting normally.
And the normal venting is what is going on that we're trying to capture/stop the fuel vapors from getting out into the atmosphere.

You can mount the Mustang style canister on the firewall normally (like they did for '76 and '77 Broncos) but that does not seem likely in your case. Too much engine, and wanting to keep a clean and tidy compartment.
Another reasonable spot is on the passenger side (or either one really) front fender area. On the frame in front of the spring. If you push it far enough forward, it's usually fairly out of sight of prying eyes.
The more suspension goodies you have under there, the more hidden the canister can be. Heck, you could mount it behind the spring tower if there is enough room to the sheet metal.
I haven't tried it, but maybe even behind the wheel, up in the body cavity by the kick panel? Seems like there might be just enough room to wedge it up there.

Any of those positions are high enough for normal use. Unless you're going to be off-roading a lot, where you might park with the nose downhill. But then, that's what the rollover valve is supposed to stop anyway.

Without the CAN-P circuit in the computer, your plumbing is simple.

Scenario A:
1. Small tube from tank vent to canister.
2. Medium fitting capped.
3. First large fitting topped off with "mushroom" vent cap.
4. Flex hose from second large fitting up to inlet system/air cleaner.

Scenario B:
1. Small tube from tank vent to canister.
2. Medium fitting to inlet system.
3. Both large tube fittings topped off with mushroom vent caps.

In either of these setups, you do NOT connect anything to manifold vacuum.
The hose that you decide to run up to the intake system, is to the area between the MAF sensor and air filter. Whether this is the filter base itself, or whatever length of tubing you have in front of the MAF sensor, you want it before the MAF and not after.
This way it can all be accounted for by the computer and 02 sensors.
Anywhere after the MAF and it's un-metered air and fuel. Anywhere behind the Throttle Body, at full vacuum, is not only un-metered air, but also a vacuum leak.
It's also the most likely to suck liquid gas into the canister where you don't want it.

It's probably more efficient to hook it to vacuum, but ONLY if the computer is able to control it through the CAN-P circuit and solenoid valve.

Paul

Those are great ideas, thanks Paul.

Unfortunately, no room in the fender well area behind the tires since I put my electrical boxes there. I’m gonna hold onto this and try a different route first and if it doesn’t work then I’ll find a small canister and mount in one of those spots. This Mustang one is just HUGE!

Thanks for the help!

 

[DirtDonk]

Got a picture of it? Maybe next to something that we are familiar with to gauge the size?
They certainly are a lot taller than a stock bronco one, but being rectangular, instead of round, quite a bit less girth.

Or did you post a link to it already? If so, I’ll backtrack and check it out.

 

[ba123]

About 7” tall which is fine, but it’s the 6 1/8” Wide and 3” Deep parts that make it tougher. Maybe not huge if you don’t mind and have room on the firewall. Seems like it might fit fine behind the front tire but would prob need a shield.

 

[73azbronco]

Yeah I am still wrestling wqith the where. wheel well, out of the question, original frame location, taken by shock hoops, in the way of rocks from tires. Thinking mustang canister on firewall on heater core side.

 

[DirtDonk]

That’s where Ford put it, so it looks right at home as long as you don’t have something there already.
The one on a friend’s truck that we mounted in the front wheel well, was nicely hidden behind the shock hoop.
Fit perfectly between the shock hoop and the inner wheel well.

 

[ba123]

That’s where Ford put it, so it looks right at home as long as you don’t have something there already.
The one on a friend’s truck that we mounted in the front wheel well, was nicely hidden behind the shock hoop.
Fit perfectly between the shock hoop and the inner wheel well.

I didn’t understand what you meant when you wrote that earlier but now I do. That looks like a great spot and might do that if this other way I’ve already decided on gives me any gas smell. We’ll see.

 

[fordguy]

I just bought all this stuff new
Rockauto:
Canister $54.79
Purge Valve $34.79

LMR:
Canister caps $9.99
Canister bracket $29.99
Hose kit $15.99

I'll likely be returning but would love to hear if there is some other way to make sure I don't get the gas smell issue. It's been too many years since my original swap and don't even remember if I ran the canister, but I also had the original tanks back then and didn't park in a garage either...

I was looking on rockauto this morning at this stuff.

 

[fountain4ever]

The vapor Trapper from Shop48.co is a great solution for all the Raw gas smells that come from your fuel tank or fuel cell. These systems all need to vent and this immediately cures the issue. You can go to Shop48.co and seem more info. They really work!!!

 

[fountain4ever]

https://www.classicperformancerestoration.com/charcoal-vapor-trapper

I am trying to add a picture of the install on a mustang but it wont let me..... :-(

 

[73azbronco]

Little pricey...

You need to be a contributor to post pics.

Are you Tom?