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Poor Braking; Wrong Prop Valve?

richg

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Jan 18, 2007
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55
Still sorting through my '73. Got it running and driving, but the brakes seem a lot worse than I recall from my old '71.

It has manual disc brakes front and rear, 33x12.5 tires. I have bled the brakes, there is no air in the system, pedal feels fine. I tried a couple panic stops and it just doesn't brake very well. I have not been able to get the fronts to lock up at all, but was able to get the rears to lock up.

Is a different prop valve or master really needed when you go disc/disc (see pics for what I have)? I had manual disc/drum on my old '71 (chevy conversion), but it was fine with the factory prop valve and master (you had to stand on it, but the truck would stop).

It feels like it needs more front bias, but wanted to check in here first.

Also, anyone recognize which disc brake kit is on this from the pictures? I think the parts are ~2005 vintage based on most of the other parts on this rig.

thanks

rich
 

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DirtDonk

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did your old '71 also have 33x12.50's? Or were they tires smaller by any chance? Can make a big difference.
Also, do you know what size the piston is in your master cylinder? If it's not 1" or less, then you're fighting the fact that it's still manual brakes. A 7/8" or 15/16" or at the most 1" bore is all you want with manual brakes.
Anything else changed?

In answer to your question about the prop valve, first of all it is not a prop valve. Or at least the original wasn't. Those were simple "H-blocks" who's only function was as a way to hold the brake differential valve to turn on the dash warning light should there be a leak in one circuit (uneven pressure between front and back).
And even if you have installed a proper proportioning valve (called a combination valve for all the things it handles) it will not improve your braking to change type. Their job(s) are not to improve braking power. Only braking stability for lack of a simpler term.

However, if yours is actually defective, or blocked somehow, yes it can negatively impact brake power. If it's plugged, or the delay/metering valve is stuck for example, the front brakes might not be getting the full pressure.
For that you either need to test with a gauge or just replace it and hope that fixes it.
But before you spend money you should verify that it is in fact the problem. Very frustrating to throw a new part on it only to find out it was not the issue.

First pic is of a standard '68 to '75 pressure differential valve (H-block).
Second pic looks like a standard master cylinder, but so many look the same you'll have to measure your piston to see what size was used. Did you do the install those years ago, or buy it this way?
Third looks like the standard GM swap to your basic early seventies GM caliper and bracket setup. Easy bolt-on for pre-disc brake Fords.
Don't know exactly what the rears are, but back then there were a lot of Cadillac calipers being used. Yours do not have a parking brake setup? Or do they?

Have you ever driven it with this setup? If not, there are a lot more things you need to go through before you can settle on the actual culprit. Tubes, hoses, masters, pedal ratios (not usually messed with, but it might have been so you need to verify), clogged H-block, all sorts of stuff.

If you look over the top of your front tire, or if no tire just down from above the front calipers, do you see plenty of daylight between the calipers and knuckles? When doing this type of conversion you have to grind a fair amount of the original steering knuckle down for caliper clearance. As the pads wear that gap gets smaller, so if it was too small to begin with, a few thousand miles of use can sometimes get into a clearance issue.

And speaking of age and disc brakes... Which we weren't of course, but this can make a difference as well. The disc pads can become glazed and not grip near as well as they should. Not only that, but the particular pad material makes a HUGE difference. Some pads just don't grip well. Or they don't grip until heated up.

So you see, lots still to check. Even wheel bearings need to be checked, readjusted or replaced. The rears are almost done at 100k miles usually, so are on borrowed time thereafter. Especially the small-bearing model.
Front bearings can last the life of the vehicle, but only if properly maintained for it's entire life. Which rarely happens anymore...

Good luck. Let us know each time you check something and what you find, so we can either rule it out, or see if you need to dig into that bit more.
But don't overlook rust and clogging in the system. It looks a bit rough on the outside, and that can sometimes indicate what it's looking like on the inside. Here again, especially if not maintained regularly including changing the fluid every few years (which most never do!).

Paul
 

Rustytruck

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Feb 24, 2002
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so when you mash the brakes for a hard stop where is your brake peddle in relationship to the floorboard? get the truck up on jack stands and rotate the tires by hand while someone pushes the brake peddle. do the brakes grab right away? check all four tires. look for any not sharing the brake load. while up on stands take off the front tires and while someone pushes the brakes make sure the front brake caliper doesnt hit the steering knuckle. on chevy conversions you have to grind the steering knuckles so the caliper doesnt hit them. as you apply the brakes the caliper slides towards the knuckle if the caliper hits the knuckle it puts force into that contact point and force doesnt clamp down on the rotor. as the brake pad wears the caliper moves towards the knuckle like it should but may contact the steering knuckle. so what was one cleared may not be today with worn brake pads.
 

Apogee

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That looks like a GM D52 front disc brake conversion and GM D154 rear disc conversion running front calipers, not rear calipers with the integral parking brakes (1979-1981 Firebird, 1978-1985 Eldorado, etc). The caliper piston diameters front and rear are probably Ø2.94" and Ø2.50" respectively, so I would expect your rear brake bias to be higher than what would be ideal, as the parking brake calipers have Ø2.03" pistons.

You could increase the front caliper piston diameter to one of the large bore D52 caliper options and/or reduce the rear piston diameter by running a parking brake caliper, as either would shift your brake bias to the front and help with the premature lockup issue in the rear. As for MC bore size, most would run Ø15/16" or Ø1" with the disc/disc setup you have.

Tobin
 
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richg

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Jan 18, 2007
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55
This is my first time really driving the truck, it was largely sitting over last ~14 years (only about 500 miles put on it) before I purchased it. Previous owner really didn't know much / have any history.

I will check out the grinding on the knuckles as I remember doing that on my '71 with the chevy brake conversion (that did have 33x12.5's on it as well).

Other than this, the brakes appear to work fine. Doesn't pull to one side or anything, pedal feels really solid, brakes start to engage early in the travel, just really doesn't seem to want to slow down :).

The rears do not have any parking brake. Now that you mention it, I do remember cadillac rear disc conversions (without parking brake) being a popular rear disc option during the timeframe this was likely built.

Is there a way I can confirm bore size on the MC without taking it off the truck?

I will pull the wheels and check the caliper clearance in front as well as the bore size of the caliper pistons and report back.

rich
 

Apogee

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Is there a way I can confirm bore size on the MC without taking it off the truck?

Nope, you'll need to pull the two nuts off the master cylinder mounting studs in order to measure the bore diameter directly. I'm wondering if it maybe has a Ø1.125" bore given the high, hard pedal with low brake torque scenario you describe.
 
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richg

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Jan 18, 2007
Messages
55
That looks like a GM D52 front disc brake conversion and GM D154 rear disc conversion running front calipers, not rear calipers with the integral parking brakes (1979-1981 Firebird, 1978-1985 Eldorado, etc). The caliper piston diameters front and rear are probably Ø2.94" and Ø2.50" respectively, so I would expect your rear brake bias to be higher than what would be ideal, as the parking brake calipers have Ø2.03" pistons.

Tobin

I measured the caliper pistons (just the portion protruding from the rubber boot)and the MC bore (for the MC, I did not remove the piston at all, just measured the bore diameter right where the end snap ring is installed).

The measurements I got were a bit off from what you list above (but likely just due to where I measured).

F - 2.86 dia
R - 2.37 dia
MC - 1.03 dia

I was hoping that it would have had the 1.125 dia MC, but from the above looks like my MC is 1" dia. I did grind away a bit more on the right knuckle (the caliper was just about kissing it, but not likely the source of my issue), cleaned and lubed all of the caliper pins, and then re-bled the brakes again. Can't find any leaks in the system, it has SS hoses and good hard lines everywhere except the rear calipers have rubber hoses. Will take it back out after I get the new mufflers on and report back.

When I search for "big bore" D52 calipers, I'm not seeing a larger size than what I think I have?

Right now guessing that I should pick up one of the disc/disc prop valves.

rich
 

DirtDonk

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The only reason you would want a larger bore master cylinder is if your pedal has Long travel before it activates the brakes. Otherwise the smaller the master cylinder the more power your leg exerts at the brakes.

A disc/disc proportioning valve is not a bad thing necessarily, but it's not going to improve your breaking power over a properly working existing one. In fact it's going to reduce pressure to the rear brakes whereas the normal H block from a 73 has full pressure to both front and rear circuits.

From some of the aftermarket companies the only difference between a disc drum and a disc disc proportioning valve is the lack of a delay/metering valve for the front brakes.
This can be a good thing, since they are prone to leaking and sticking. If that were the case here it would certainly improve your breaking to have a new one. But since your stock set up does not have a metering valve in it, there's no improvement to be had from a proportioning valve.
If there is a defect or something else wrong with your existing one however, then obviously replacing it with a good one would be an improvement.
 
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richg

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Jan 18, 2007
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The only reason you would want a larger bore master cylinder is if your pedal has Long travel before it activates the brakes. Otherwise the smaller the master cylinder the more power your leg exerts at the brakes.

A disc/disc proportioning valve is not a bad thing necessarily, but it's not going to improve your breaking power over a properly working existing one. In fact it's going to reduce pressure to the rear brakes whereas the normal H block from a 73 has full pressure to both front and rear circuits.

I didn't necessarily "want" the larger bore MC, but if it was the larger bore, I think it would help explain a bit of what I was experiencing.

I took it out again today, and I think part of the problem was that the pads/discs are really old and had gotten some contamination/glaze on them. After cleaning them up and doing several hard stops, the brakes have improved a good bit. The rears still start to bite too early and lock-up before I'd like them to. I'll likely end up picking up one of the disc/disc prop valves, and maybe adding a power assist, but first it needs tires (they look to be ~20 yrs old by the date codes).

Thanks again everyone for your help.
 

Yeller

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Also if it hasn't been driven much the pads may not be seated. Went through this with a recent project. New disc swap and it stopped terrible, would lock the rear drums up just trying to slow down. But it started getting better after a few miles and a lot of stopping. Took probably 200 miles of running to town and country driving to get it to stop like expected and after about 400 miles was everything I wanted and then some.
 

H20rider

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Jul 14, 2021
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My '68 HalfCab came with shot brake lines and 4x drums on15” wheels/31” tires.
I converted to stainless lines, a larger dual reservoir master, and a vapor brake booster.
Problem: Rear brakes easily lock with any more than mild, gradual pressure and truck skids easily.
Solution 1: Bleed lines again in case H valve was tricked into shifting more pressure to the rear.
Outcome: No difference in braking.
Solution 2: replace H valve with appropriate proportioning valve.
Outcome: possibly a very mild improvement (less tendency to skid), but still unsafe.
Solution 3: (Not yet undertaken) Add an adjustable valve to the rear brakeline and turn down the rear brake fluid.
I wish I didn't have to do. This since it involves flaring the cut rear brakeline. Stainless lines are tough to work with, but given the ongoing problem with skidding, I don't see a less involved solution.
Before undertaking this next step, any ideas?
BTW, the brake warning light is not lit.
 

DirtDonk

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Crap. Another 403 Error page when I hit reply! Hate it when that happens. Especially at almost 3 in the morning! Ugh.

I'll PM you my reply, but try to put some of it here too. I'll have to whittle it down until it lets me post.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Well I think you might be on the right track with one type of valve or the other. Maybe...
The adjustable kind is better suited to most modern EB's due to all the modifications most of us have done that negate the original Ford designs. But a good modern prop valve can subdue overpressure to the rears that might cause initial lockup.
 

DirtDonk

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Are you still running the 4-wheel drums though? If so, not really sure a prop valve is the answer.
 

DirtDonk

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Larger bore master? Would lower the brake power, but the vacuum booster should help make up for some of that. From the factory, Ford used the same size master with both manual and boosted brake systems. Maybe the larger master is simply highlighting some variations in the system. Not sure, but sounds possible.

Brake adjustments. Got the fronts as tight as the rears? Do you have the large rear brakes, or small?

Brake warning lamp. Does it light up during START as a test? If not, the bulb might be burned out, or the circuit not complete. Lots of Broncos are running around with unplugged connectors or with removed bulbs so the owners did not have to look at the constantly lit dash lamp!
Might be worth a quick check on that.

Good luck.

Pau
 

Past_Miner

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I struggled with similar issues on mine for years. Stock '76 front brakes with explorer rears and 35's. I took it to a couple of shops that were known for good work on older vehicles. I changed my master a couple of times and even rebuilt my hydrobooster, Nothing ever seemed to fix the problem.

I had a bad flex line on one of the front corners (I can't remember which one). There wasn't any physical evidence of a problem and you couldn't see the line bulge, even with the hydrobooster giving it all it had. The flex line was bulging just enough that I couldn't get adequate pressure on the front brakes to get them to grip. It's a long shot but it's worth looking into.

I'm also a firm believer in an adjustable proportioning valve on the rear brakes. Most rear setups just take less pressure to actuate than the old style front calipers.
 

H20rider

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Jul 14, 2021
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Brake warning light is not hooked up to the ignitionÂ….I am just using a test light to verify that the distribution valve is centered and not compensating for a bad bleed.
Meanwhile I am driving like an elderly scaredy-cat, worried a pedestrian or car will jump out and I will quietly skid into them. :(
 

Jdgephar

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Sep 25, 2012
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If you go with an adjusting valve, Wilwood makes one with inverted flare fittings.

Part 260-10922

Then you don't have to worry about getting the !@#$ fittings to be leak free and wreck your paint!

I just added a short piece of brake line between the master to the valve and then the line to the rears right into the valve.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk
 

DirtDonk

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Sorry in my last posts I was forgetting you'd already said four-wheel disc brakes. The larger rear calipers could explain why the rears lock up first, but not why you can't get good braking from the front.
Reducing the pressure to the rears with a proportioning valve will help to balance the braking, but won't add any more power as has been said.

Two schools of though are still out there regarding the old H-style distribution block with brake warning switch. One is that when the shuttle strokes to one side, it cuts off fluid flow to that circuit. The other is that it ONLY switches on the lamp, but does NOT impede the flow of brake fluid.
I used to be of the assumption that it did cut flow, but now I'm pretty firmly in the other camp. Looking at diagrams of them it does not appear to be able to shut down flow to the end with the leak. It just activates the switch, but does not impede flow.

So assuming it's clear, it should not be blocking any flow to the front. However that's a big assumption after this many years. But this is where you get a gauge and do a pressure check to see if you're losing anything.

That's one downside to the larger pistons in the calipers. You utilize a larger master to keep the firm high pedal, but then you need a booster. Not an issue in most other vehicles, but in a Bronco there is only room for a small vacuum booster and they don't always add the boost/assist you'd expect to see. A typical Bronco trade-off...

You might have a loss of pressure, or you may simply be running afoul of the system's lack of power running up against heavy 33" tires. Those are usually the borderline between recommending vacuum assist vs hydro-boost in an EB.

But everything has to work properly first. If you have all new lines, it still would not hurt to check pressure to make sure the H-block is not causing trouble somehow.

Paul
 
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