timing question for those running estreet efi video added

[m_m70]

I was having issues with setting this system up and getting a decent idle. Called the edelbrock tech line and we changed the map and it's better. I know it needs time to "self learn" but one of the things the tech had me do was bump the base timing to 18btc. My question is if that is what you guys had to do to smooth things out? Seems a bit much but I have no experience with any EFI systems. It does give me the highest vacuum reading @ 19.2 at idle but I don't want to destroy my motor either%).
Thanks for any response....

 

[DirtDonk]

I've run mine that high in the past (with carburetor) and not had any real trouble. But you could hear it ping under load, so I ran it back down to 14 instead.
But on other engines I've had, 18 was the norm. So it depends on the engine. Usually our Fords don't need that much, but given the EFI and the much finer fuel control it's got, you might be able to get away with the few extra degrees of advance without any detrimental results.

What's your target AFR? Seems to me they have you set it fairly rich? If that's the case, then extra timing is probably helpful, and the extra fuel can "sort of" compensate for what would normally be a higher-than-needed advance.

let us know how it works.

Paul

 

[m_m70]

Hey Paul,
on the map we switched it to the target AFR is set at 12.9 for idle, cruise and WOT. Seems a bit rich (and smells that way too) so I bumped it up to 13.2. I will drive it around tomorrow and see how it does. Just don't want to melt any pistons with the timing set too high!
We'll also see if that helps the backfiring on cold starts that was another issue I had with this setup.

 

[pcf_mark]

I am using 18 degrees with my EFI conversion for what it's worth. Every set up is different but you wont hurt anything unless you are lean.

I am assuming you are not running E10 / fuel with alcohol. That impacts your target AFR. Here in the northeast we get E10 everywhere and 14.1 is the stoic target.

If I were tuning it I would set idle at 12.5 - 12.9 then cruise at 13.7-13.9 and wot 12.2-12.5. Gives you some margin but gets you closer. 12.9 and plenty of timing could hurt something if you are making more power than you think.

Link to info on fuel composition versus afr targets. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/news6.php

 

[EFI Guy]

That is the reason it is always better to tune in LAMBDA rather than AFR.

Correcting for E-10....I'd shoot for 11.9-12.1 at WOT, 13.5-13.8 cruise, and stoich at idle. Just my preference.

Nothing wrong with 18* base / idle, if that system has control over spark and the 18* base doesn't magically equate to over advanced under heavy load. (I know absolutely nothing about that system).

 

[m_m70]

thanks for the replies. this system does not have control over timing or spark. I will see how it does on the road tomorrow.

 

[DirtDonk]

I never understood why they wanted it so rich at idle, where there is so little load. It should burn very effectively to over 14 I would think. But these guys here are knowing more about that sort of stuff it seems, so listen to them and see what results you get.

I can see over-rich during WOT of course, but cruise? I thought that's what the accelerator pump was for.
Seein' as how you're hereabouts, I'm guessing you're not running any of the "E" gasolines? What cam are you running? Stock, or mild upgrade? Wild?

Anyway, keep the experiments running and the info coming!

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh, and what ignition and plug gap are you running? They have any recommendations there?

Paul

 

[m_m70]

Not running e gas here. I am running the pertronix ignitor 3 in a pertronix flamethrower distributor. Plug gap is set to .045.
What concerns me most about the timing is the "all in" factor. Never been totally clear on how to check this. If I have the vacuum advance connected and check the timing at around 3000 RPMs with a basic timing light it's over 40* which I thought was over the top.
Running long tube headers and TFS 170 heads with a stock cam.
Should have some time this afternoon to run the truck around the neighborhood and we'll see if it runs any better with the different MAP up-loaded.

 

[pcf_mark]

I am unsure why the engine likes (needs?) to be richer at idle. I moved mine all over the place to see how the timing and afr could impact idle and it likes to be richer than stoic. I think (not know) it is because the speed in the cylnder is so slow at idle and that the mixture is not very homogenous (clumps of fuel w/o air) because they are not being tumbled into the chamber at idle speed. Because of this the engine mis fires more often. You make up for this by adding some fuel to increase your chances ot getting a decent burn.

Not a proven fact but what I think is happening based on observations.

All in timing - the band-aid of all timing problems. You should disconnect your distributor vacuum line and plug it. Then read the timing every 500 rpm from idle to 3500. Plot that and you have your timing curve. Not that you can change it on a Ford!

Then you can connect the distributor to manifold vacuum (not ported) and see how high the timing jumps. The difference is the max the vac cannister can give you. To really know your timing you need to record the vacuum on the port at your cruise speed / rpm. Then apply the same vacuum at idle while observing with a timing light to see how much it gives you. Lets say your cruise vacuum is 14". You apply 14" vacuum to the can (with a Might Vac) and see how the timing increase. If it increase by 10 them your total timing at cruise is your base timing curve plus 10.

The Ford system of timing finally made me go EFI because I almost lost my mind trying to adjust something that was never meant to be adjusted!

 

[bteutsch]

Any luck?

 

[m_m70]

some luck........it does cold start a little better with the different map they had me upload. I do mean a "little". still very rich and popping out the exhaust until it reaches running temp. Nor something the neighbors' want to hear or smell every morning. Edelbrock was closed today so no help there. haven't had time to drive it out on the street but I know it's still not right. On the tablet gauges the rpms still fluctuate constantly at idle from 720 to 805 and I know the tps is set correctly. Once warmed up afr seems to hold steady at 13 but the correction varies from 5 to 9. Vacuum fluctuates from 18.8 to 19.0 at hot idle. Can't find any vacuum leaks with brake clean around manifold or carb and headers are sealed well too. Not giving up yet as I don't need an pricy paperweight on the shelf.

 

[bteutsch]

timing question for those running estreet efi

No kidding about the paper weight, I'm watching your thread closely, I'm am considering very seriously purchasing this kit, I also have the pertronix igniter iii coil and distributor, and their spark plug wires.. I also currently have a performer intake, cam and carb. I've heard really encouraging results from others on the forum. Hopefully you can work it out. rguest3 was one member that was happy with this system.

 

[m_m70]

Cool. Not thinking it's a bad system and I know most have had great results and very happy with it. Plan on spending some time this week playing with it. Sound like we have close to the same set up on our trucks. I have long tube headers and I'm thinking that the 02 sensor may be too far down from the collector. I may pull the passenger side header and have a bung welded into the actual collector on the header than after. I think that may help with the erratic afr correction readings. I also have a 6al box I may install to see if it gets a better tach reading.

 

[bteutsch]

I did see where some of the tach signal issues were corrected with the 6AL box didn't see any issues reported about the pertronix system though, those were mostly HEI or DUI setups. I have long tube headers also, got mine jet hot coated.. I'm sure you'll figure it out.. I want to know the solution though because our setups are so similar.. lol

 

[Broncobowsher]

I am really questioning there tuning. The therotical ideal ratio is 14.7 with gasoline. If you go to the real lamba it should be 1 and that is scaled to the gasoline of 14.7 for the air/fuel ratio.

Yes, engine run a little better slightly rich. By slightly rich 14.2~14.5 would be a much better starting point. Target ratio in the 12s is stupid, I don't even want to see numbers that low unless full throttle under boost. Even if I was just doing a super sloppy, just get it running targets I would still aim for 14 at idle and 13 at full load. Once it is running start leaning out the idle and the cruise.

Slightly rich doesn't stink. It is just high CO. If you are smelling it rich it is stupid rich. Wash the oil off the cylinder walls rich.

To get an idea where to set realistic targets for air/fuel ratio just Google "air fuel ratio chart" and look at images. When done you should be a little on the rich side under power, a little lean at cruise, pretty much ideal at idle.

 

[m_m70]

Thanks Bowsher. On the next warm up I am going to set the targets more inline with what it's supposed to be in the charts and see what happens. It surprises me that there base maps (at least the two I have uploaded) are set at 12.8 across the board with idle, cruise and wot. I can't imagine that working well without major tuning corrections.
I figured hooking up a box would eliminate the possibility of a tach signal problem and I happen to have a good one on the shelf. Hey if it helps great, if not back on the shelf it goes and not much time or more importantly cash wasted..

 

[DirtDonk]

As you go leaner, also don't hesitate to play with your ignition timing still too. You can retard it a bit more as you go leaner, or leave it where it is and experiment as you go.
I'm thinking your TFS heads have a more efficient combustion chamber design than most stock Ford heads up to about the P heads or better. So may not benefit from quite as much timing advance as a stock-type head would.

But it's all got to work together, so it's all an experiment in stages. Including even the spark plug gap. Your .045" should be perfect I would think, but some cylinder heads and cams (in other words, the dynamic compression seen by the fuel/air mix) might appreciate less gap. Maybe something like .040" instead?
No way to know without experimenting unfortunately. But the coolest thing of all is that some of that experimenting now only takes a few moments with your tablet and pushing a few buttons while looking at that nice screen!!!

Too bad changing plug gaps ain't quite so quick!
Definitely appreciate all the updates.

Paul

 

[pcf_mark]

I am trying to understand the behavior of your digital instruments. If your AFR and tach signal at idle are jumping you may have a different problem that is causing you to chase your tune. I have had cars with a bad coil or ignition problem cause afr to jump around. The problem is when a cylinder mis-fires you get a dump of fuel in the exhaust (pegs rich) then it cleans up for a few cycles and you get a good reading then it misses again etc. etc. The tach signal should be clean constantly. If all of your reading jump (water and tps) you have a ground or other electrical issue.

We can debate afr back and forth but you need to set it to achieve your highest vacuum level and smoothest idle. On cruise set it as lean as you can without mis-firing / shuddering. At WOT go for mid to upper 12's.

 

[m_m70]

OK so the tach shows the rpms at idle ranging between 730 and 770 and fluctuating. The afr readings are from 13.4 to 13.7. At idle it shows the afr correction between -5 and -9. while cruising the correction was -1 to -2 and afr held pretty steady at 13.7.
All of the other gauges are steady.
Installed the 6al box today and will probably keep it in there because it fires much quicker with it.
I reset the e street box and set it to run with the 6al box. I then set the afr set points to 13.5 at idle and 13.75 at cruise. I drove it around 20 miles tonight and it ran OK. It does take time for it to break itself in so I will check the cold start tomorrow and check back in then. I will try to get a video of the gauges while idling tomorrow.