Tie rod tapered stud not fitting knuckle

[CopperBronco]

I’m installing Duffs new dual sport Heim steer, I’m going TRU, and using tapered studs from JBG, as Duffs were back ordered. See photo below, but passenger side leaves a gap when torqued… I see three possible solutions but wanted this forums advice.

1. Grease the stud and sledge hammer in lightly to see if it goes.

2. The tapered stud was manufactured wrong and need to replace with new one.

3. Drill out knuckles and move to 3/4” bolts as Duff gives the option to do so.

4. Guess I could grind down tapered stud, but that gives me anxiety to mess with structural integrity of the stud.

Anyone else experience tapered studs not fitting the knuckle? I’m assuming it should snug up tight to knuckle once castle nuts are tightened down.

 

[SteveL]

What year knuckles are the studs for? The full size knuckles have a different taper than the 66-77. You can buy adapter sleeves but for your application it's probably better to get the right stud.

 

[CopperBronco]

I have a Dana 30 on a 66 Bronco, although not sure what year knuckles are… Bronco was restored two PO ago, they changed a ton of stuff. I lied, tapered studs are from BC Broncos, and 66-75 year ones: https://bcbroncos.com/shop/steering...m-joint-stud-for-early-bronco-66-75-knuckles/

Didn’t buy the sleeve as those definitely wouldn’t fit on my Bronco.

 

[SteveL]

With the dana 30 the later ford knuckles won't fit. If it has disc brakes it might have chevy knuckles.

 

[CopperBronco]

I do have disc brake conversion up front…

 

[CopperBronco]

Here is photo

 

[DirtDonk]

First thing I would do would be to swap the tapered studs left to right and see if they act the same.
If they act the same and leave the gap on the one side, then you know it’s not the fault of the new tapered stud and that your knuckle openings are slightly different.

That would be the best case scenario too, because the gap looks like it only needs a couple of thousands taken off of the tapered hole.
I would try to ream that slightly or check for debris in the hole first.
If you reach up with the finger and feel any ridges or bumps, try to smooth them out somehow.
Would be a shame to buy a tapered reamer just for a few thousands, but I think it would be worth it.
Maybe borrow one? Harbor freight?

 

[CopperBronco]

Thanks, I’ll look into this! Do you know what angle the taper is on those knuckles? I can probably call BC Broncos and ask angle on tapered studs.

 

[Shimmy]

i'd throw a washer in there and call it good

 

[DirtDonk]

I want to say it's 7° but not sure. It has been quoted here before, but I don't have any links to those discussions.
The other aspect to these tapers is the depth. Many are the same degree angle but with a varying depth of the hole, which necessitates a larger or smaller tapered stud.

A washer is a two edged sword. On the one hand it would certainly fill the gap and support the sideways torquing better, but if you get it too thick it will keep the tapered stud from seating properly in the tapered hole.
I would check the hole for debris first, ream second, fill with washer last, but only if I spot-faced the bottom of the steering arm a little bit and found a washer just the right thickness.

Paul

 

[CopperBronco]

I want to say it's 7° but not sure. It has been quoted here before, but I don't have any links to those discussions.
The other aspect to these tapers is the depth. Many are the same degree angle but with a varying depth of the hole, which necessitates a larger or smaller tapered stud.

A washer is a two edged sword. On the one hand it would certainly fill the gap and support the sideways torquing better, but if you get it too thick it will keep the tapered stud from seating properly in the tapered hole.
I would check the hole for debris first, ream second, fill with washer last, but only if I spot-faced the bottom of the steering arm a little bit and found a washer just the right thickness.

Paul

So yes, they are 7 degree on Dana 30 axle / knuckles… 66-71 Broncos. Update also, BC Broncos makes those tapered studs (they supply to Duff as well), they said the variance is normal and expected as knuckles seat differently. Just torque to spec and leave it be according to their techs. Duff recommends the delrin spacers, but BC says they aren’t needed.

 

[DirtDonk]

I think they are both correct. It's perfectly fine to leave it like it is as long as the stud is fully engaged in the hole, but I like the Duff answer slightly better just because it adds that little extra layer of protection from debris. Again though, as long as any added spacer does not hold the stud out and keep the taper from seating properly.

Removing the lower washer entirely and installing a simple dust boot on top of the rod end would likely fill the gap and you'd never notice that the rod end is standing off of the arm. And you do actually want the end standing off so the center can rotate on the outer. When you steer the caster and inclination angles make the steering arm travel not only in the obvious arc, but also with a tilting motion that the rod ends have to compensate for.

Just so I understand this clearly, is that lower washer held rigidly between the rod end and the shank of the stud? Or is it just loose and floating there on the shank of the stud?
Is it a flat-on-both sides washer, or is it a cupped washer/shield/thingy?
If loose and cupped, it's just a visual thing and a simple rod end dust boot would shield things and compress and fill the gap.

The only other thing we have not talked about that you still have to deal with are the cotter pins. Looks like the studs at both ends are purposely long to compensate for irregularities and parts differences, so unless they already have multiple hole locations for the cotter pins, you may have to drill your own after the finalized torqued positions of the castle nuts are confirmed.
Nothing wrong with adding a thick washer on top, but that does not look like it would alone bring the nut's castellations up to the point of the hole that I can see.

That sound about right?

Paul

 

[CopperBronco]

I think they are both correct. It's perfectly fine to leave it like it is as long as the stud is fully engaged in the hole, but I like the Duff answer slightly better just because it adds that little extra layer of protection from debris. Again though, as long as any added spacer does not hold the stud out and keep the taper from seating properly.

Removing the lower washer entirely and installing a simple dust boot on top of the rod end would likely fill the gap and you'd never notice that the rod end is standing off of the arm. And you do actually want the end standing off so the center can rotate on the outer. When you steer the caster and inclination angles make the steering arm travel not only in the obvious arc, but also with a tilting motion that the rod ends have to compensate for.

Just so I understand this clearly, is that lower washer held rigidly between the rod end and the shank of the stud? Or is it just loose and floating there on the shank of the stud?
Is it a flat-on-both sides washer, or is it a cupped washer/shield/thingy?
If loose and cupped, it's just a visual thing and a simple rod end dust boot would shield things and compress and fill the gap.

The only other thing we have not talked about that you still have to deal with are the cotter pins. Looks like the studs at both ends are purposely long to compensate for irregularities and parts differences, so unless they already have multiple hole locations for the cotter pins, you may have to drill your own after the finalized torqued positions of the castle nuts are confirmed.
Nothing wrong with adding a thick washer on top, but that does not look like it would alone bring the nut's castellations up to the point of the hole that I can see.

That sound about right?

Paul

Yes a cupped delrin spacer that snugs up to the Heim. And good point on cotter pins, was wondering about that!

 

[Rustytruck]

Maybe this will help.

Outer Tie Rod Ends by Dimension - Moog Suspension Parts

A comprehensive chart of Moog outer tie rod ends by size. We have the dimensions and stud sizes for each Moog outer tie rod end, so you can match your vehicle specifications.

www.moog-suspension-parts.com

 

[CopperBronco]

Question… my new tapered studs on my Heim steer, when I torque to spec, 40-50ft/lbs, the castle nut overlaps the cotter pin hole. This is kind of minutiae, but don’t want to be the idiot whose tie rod bolt came off driving down the the road. Curious what you would do:

1. Torque to 80-90ft lbs so cotter pin hole is not blocked, concern here is now all the stress is on the threads of the adjustable Heim tie rod.

2. Remove washer on bottom of Heim, the cotter pin doesn’t interlock with castle nut now, just sits well below castle nut, but I can torque to spec.

3. Torque to spec and skip the cotter pin.

4. Grind down washer or find thinner one hoping it will line up with cotter pin hole.

5. I can tighten to line up with cotter pin hole but less than 20 ft lbs

 

[m_m70]

Torque to spec and skip the cotter pin.

really, really bad idea. Please don't.

Grind down washer or find thinner one hoping it will line up with cotter pin hole.

from the looks of your pic, I would "add" another thin washer and re-torque. Looks like you have plenty of room even if you need to add more than one. Use the cotter pin!!!

 

[CopperBronco]

really, really bad idea. Please don't.


from the looks of your pic, I would "add" another thin washer and re-torque. Looks like you have plenty of room even if you need to add more than one. Use the cotter pin!!!

Yeah, wasn’t planning on skipping pin really, but just thinking out loud. Thanks for input!

 

[DirtDonk]

You don’t normally have to double the torque value just to line up with a hole. Simply put some more torque on it and see how much it takes to get the hole lined up.
Usually it’s just five or 10 pounds.

In your case if it is 50 pounds more, then definitely go to Plan B.
And whether you use a thicker washer or a thinner washer, you can also drill a new hole through the stud to better line up.