Dana 20 Pills

[Torkman66]

I finished rebuilding my T handle T/C. On the bench the shift rods a very difficult to move in and out. I know I don’t have the leverage of the T handle and maybe that’s all that is needed. If I loosen up the spring and ball plugs the shift rods move pretty easy so it’s clearly the detent balls making it so tight.

I’ve read that getting the T shift in and out of various gears is a common issue. While I have it on my bench do you suggest removing the pills and going twin stick? Will that make it easier and more reliable to shift?

 

[JB Fab]

On the bench, with no shifter it should be extremely difficult to move the rails by hand, you are good

 

[jamesroney]

I finished rebuilding my T handle T/C. On the bench the shift rods a very difficult to move in and out. I know I don’t have the leverage of the T handle and maybe that’s all that is needed. If I loosen up the spring and ball plugs the shift rods move pretty easy so it’s clearly the detent balls making it so tight.

I’ve read that getting the T shift in and out of various gears is a common issue. While I have it on my bench do you suggest removing the pills and going twin stick? Will that make it easier and more reliable to shift?

Twin stick, yes. But leave the pill in it. The only reason to pull the pill is to get front wheel drive. Note that the spring and ball detents are not the pills.

@JB Fab didn't mention his twin stick, so I will. It's good. Buy it.

 

[Torkman66]

Thanks JB, that sounds right. Any thoughts on removing the pills to go with twin sticks? Will rarely see 4wd. This is a city driver, but I want it to work correctly. Any advantage to the twin sticks other than separate axle control (functionality, ease of operations, etc.)? Jamesr, we posted at the same time. My T handle dana 20 has two pills.

 

[JB Fab]

Thanks JB, that sounds right. Any thoughts on removing the pills to go with twin sticks? Will rarely see 4wd. This is a city driver, but I want it to work correctly. Any advantage to the twin sticks other than separate axle control (functionality, ease of operations, etc.)? Jamesr, we posted at the same time. My T handle dana 20 has two pills.

Unless you are planning on doing serious 4 wheeling, I would leave the pills in or use our modified shiftrail set-up

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks JB, that sounds right. Any thoughts on removing the pills to go with twin sticks? Will rarely see 4wd. This is a city driver, but I want it to work correctly. Any advantage to the twin sticks other than separate axle control (functionality, ease of operations, etc.)? Jamesr, we posted at the same time. My T handle dana 20 has two pills.

Yes, they all have 2 interlock pills. "rods" as seen it the pic here.

You have to be careful about removing the interlock pill(s), because if you leave them both out, you can shift the transfer case into low range and high range at the same time. (which is BAD) So when people talk about removing the pill(s), they really mean to remove 1 pill(?), and modify the shift rail so that you can STILL never select high and low range at the same time. I will never understand the need for "2 wheel low" or "front axle Digs" but there are lots of solutions out there for problems that I don't comprehend.

It's horrible language, because it's kind of slang...and I've seen it done. But no sane person leaves out both pills.

 

[Torkman66]

Very helpful. So I can just leave tc as is and order the twins from JB and install. It is a stock bronco C4 and adapter so looks like the basic model.

If all I do is install the twin sticks and leave both pills, then I would need to follow a shifting sequence correct? As I understand it, the pills must always fall into one of tha rail detents for them to move. IOW, when shifting from 2H to 4L, is there a required sequence on the left and right levers that must be followed because of where and how the pills align? Thanks.

 

[jamesroney]

Very helpful. So I can just leave tc as is and order the twins from JB and install. It is a stock bronco C4 and adapter so looks like the basic model.

If all I do is install the twin sticks and leave both pills, then I would need to follow a shifting sequence correct? As I understand it, the pills must always fall into one of tha rail detents for them to move. IOW, when shifting from 2H to 4L, is there a required sequence on the left and right levers that must be followed because of where and how the pills align? Thanks.

YES! that is exactly right. And it turns out that every Dana 18 twin stick transfer case factory installed in every Jeep utility vehicle from 1942 to 1971 works the same way. We sent 18 year old GI's to combat with that transfer case, and with zero training...they managed to figure it out. You can too!

One lever controls the front drive. The other lever controls the rear. Pull towards the rear to go fast push to the front to go slow.

If you ever get confused, just grab a lever and move it. If it moves, great! If it won't move...move the other one!

 

[Viperwolf1]

If you ever get confused, just grab a lever and move it. If it moves, great! If it won't move...move the other one!

That theory of operation probably works just as well at landing a plane too.

For a T type case with both pills installed, the rear (right stick) must be put into range (high or low) before the front stick can go into that same range. The front stick must also be put into neutral before the rear stick can be changed into a different range or neutral.

 

[Torkman66]

That is easy to understand.

 

[68rustbucket]

Where can I find a diagram of where pills are located in a J shift case? I have one that before it was removed would pop out of 4 low quite often. It was twin stIcked. Was told it probably needed the pills and springs replaced.

 

[Viperwolf1]

Where can I find a diagram of where pills are located in a J shift case? I have one that before it was removed would pop out of 4 low quite often. It was twin stIcked. Was told it probably needed the pills and springs replaced.

Only one pill in a J case. It doesn't really keep it in gear. It's there to limit the travel of the shift rails. You would need to get one of the rails out to get to it. That means you'll be completely dismantling it.

 

[toddz69]

I will never understand the need for "2 wheel low" or "front axle Digs" but there are lots of solutions out there for problems that I don't comprehend.

My dad designed and built a twin stick setup for our truck back in the mid/late '80s long before they were available from any vendor. (he previously owned a '67 Scout with a D18 that was twin-sticked and he liked it). He (and I) wanted 2 Lo for a very specific reason: having a lower reverse gear for backing our Army firewood/trash hauling trailer into a very specific location at our business. We (and specifically me) had a lot more control and less clutch slipping with the low range reverse. Now a reasonable person would say, "well, why didn't you just throw the lever forward into 2-Lo if that's what you needed?" And we could've done that, and we probably did, but that would neglect the fact in our case that a) Dad loved to design and build things (still does) so the twin stick was a good design/fab exercise for him b) the twin stick made shifting the t-case a lot easier and more precise compared to the old worn-out/sloppy t-handle shifter.

So there's an example of why someone wanted (and arguably needed) 2 wheel low.

Todd Z.

 

[BOBS 2 68S]

I use "2 low" when backing any of my trailers or just working in a tight area.

 

[gnpenning]

There are plenty of off road situations where front dig can come in handy. I think there was a video of Gordon Ballie and others posted here that showed the advantages. Trail mater videos show it fairly regularly being used effectively to their advantage.

I like the 2 low for backing at times as well.

Let's not forget the ability to use just the front to drive home on.

While the argument can be made a couple of these can be used in 4wd, the answer becomes why when you have a better option.

Different needs for different people. Do what works for you.

 

[jamesroney]

My dad designed and built a twin stick setup for our truck back in the mid/late '80s long before they were available from any vendor. (he previously owned a '67 Scout with a D18 that was twin-sticked and he liked it). He (and I) wanted 2 Lo for a very specific reason: having a lower reverse gear for backing our Army firewood/trash hauling trailer into a very specific location at our business. We (and specifically me) had a lot more control and less clutch slipping with the low range reverse. Now a reasonable person would say, "well, why didn't you just throw the lever forward into 2-Lo if that's what you needed?" And we could've done that, and we probably did, but that would neglect the fact in our case that a) Dad loved to design and build things (still does) so the twin stick was a good design/fab exercise for him b) the twin stick made shifting the t-case a lot easier and more precise compared to the old worn-out/sloppy t-handle shifter.

So there's an example of why someone wanted (and arguably needed) 2 wheel low.

Todd Z.

I guess I'm lucky that Arthur Warn produced unlocking front hubs back in 1948. Let's not confound the twin stick with the 2-lo position. The Dana 18 was factory twin stick, but the 2-lo position was not available. In my Willys, if I needed 2Lo, I just didn't bother to get out an lock the front hubs.

So I wholeheartedly agree with the "want" but I am skeptical of the "need."

And if you ever ran D18 twin sticks for any length of time, you would notice that the sticks wear out, and rattle, flop around, and fall out of the slot. I can guarantee you that my 1951 M38 twin stick Dana 18 was far more sloppy than any T-shifter I've ever used. But my biggest problem with twin stick was always the unavailability of a rugged and durable shift boot. Which resulted in socks, and shirts, and rags stuffed in the shifter hole, but the heat still came thru. The Dana 18 rubber shift boot was poorly made, super thin, and were always leaking. Now that the aftermarket has made a far superior twin stick boot, I actually recommend going with the twin stick.

I do appreciate your memories...thanks.

 

[toddz69]

I guess I'm lucky that Arthur Warn produced unlocking front hubs back in 1948. Let's not confound the twin stick with the 2-lo position. The Dana 18 was factory twin stick, but the 2-lo position was not available. In my Willys, if I needed 2Lo, I just didn't bother to get out an lock the front hubs.

So I wholeheartedly agree with the "want" but I am skeptical of the "need."

And if you ever ran D18 twin sticks for any length of time, you would notice that the sticks wear out, and rattle, flop around, and fall out of the slot. I can guarantee you that my 1951 M38 twin stick Dana 18 was far more sloppy than any T-shifter I've ever used. But my biggest problem with twin stick was always the unavailability of a rugged and durable shift boot. Which resulted in socks, and shirts, and rags stuffed in the shifter hole, but the heat still came thru. The Dana 18 rubber shift boot was poorly made, super thin, and were always leaking. Now that the aftermarket has made a far superior twin stick boot, I actually recommend going with the twin stick.

I do appreciate your memories...thanks.

Wait...you can't access 2 Lo with a twin-sticked Dana 18? (checks internet - yeah, guess there's an interlock detent pin) That's interesting - Dad had to put the Scout in low range to climb our driveway at home and also to get out onto the main road from our street and I distinctly remember him shifting from low range to high range and then shifting the transmission through the gears. Dad's a shifting whiz but I don't think he could've shifted both twin sticks and then shifted the transmission and kept the Scout's mighty 152 ci 4 cylinder going well enough to stay ahead of traffic. Maybe someone pulled the detent pin, who knows...

I don't remember our shifters being sloppy and loose and but the Scout was only 11 yrs old when Dad bought it so maybe it was still tight. Don't remember how tight they were on my '51 3A - never drove it enough to know.

Speaking of shifter boots - I recently discovered a big crack/tear in my Atlas twin-stick boot. The replacement from AA seems to be a much softer/pliable material than the original so something has obviously changed in their makeup.

Todd Z.

 

[jamesroney]

Wait...you can't access 2 Lo with a twin-sticked Dana 18? (checks internet - yeah, guess there's an interlock detent pin) That's interesting - Dad had to put the Scout in low range to climb our driveway at home and also to get out onto the main road from our street and I distinctly remember him shifting from low range to high range and then shifting the transmission through the gears. Dad's a shifting whiz but I don't think he could've shifted both twin sticks and then shifted the transmission and kept the Scout's mighty 152 ci 4 cylinder going well enough to stay ahead of traffic. Maybe someone pulled the detent pin, who knows...

I don't remember our shifters being sloppy and loose and but the Scout was only 11 yrs old when Dad bought it so maybe it was still tight. Don't remember how tight they were on my '51 3A - never drove it enough to know.

Speaking of shifter boots - I recently discovered a big crack/tear in my Atlas twin-stick boot. The replacement from AA seems to be a much softer/pliable material than the original so something has obviously changed in their makeup.

Todd Z.

I don’t think that the CJ’s got the same kind of use as the utility truck. My 1953 Willy’s 4-53 EC2 pickup saw a lot of miles, and very little maintenance. I know that there was a zerk fitting on the twin stick pivot shaft, but it never got greased. There’s a couple of leaf springs that sandwich on the pivot shaft to prevent rattle. I’ll bet I worked on a dozen of them before I found one with them intact and in place. They rattle much worse when those are lost in the dirt floor.

I also have fond memories of winding the l-head 134 up to ludicrous RPM, and making the transfer case range select from 4lo to 4hi, double clutch back from 3rd to an un-synchronized 1st gear and hope you can do all that before you lose momentum. Then sometime later…realize that you still need to push the 2WD selector back out.

Then my dad would say something like “why don’t you try doing that without the clutch?”

Early bronco drivers are kinda soft…