• Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!
    If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.

Explorer Power Steering Pump to Reservoir Pressure?

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,794
Loc.
Upper SoKA
Back when Lee PS was owned and run by Tom Lee they had a steering system test bench to test their parts & systems with. I know that I saw it once, but I have no memory of it. I tend to take their suggestions seriously because of that.
 

Yeller

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
6,778
Loc.
Rogers County Oklahoma
All of the power steering companies hate it, they say it’s too thick, but I’ve run Amsoil tractor fluid for a couple of decades. But it has cured nearly every noisy pump I’ve put it in and have yet to have a pump or hardware failure of new parts. However, Ive had seal and pump drive failures on very well used parts. As @ntsqd stated even plain hydraulic oil works fine. I’ve even used hydraulic oil as shock oil, I know way off topic lol.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,794
Loc.
Upper SoKA
The start of the ATF vs. PSF vs. Hyd Fluid rabbit hole: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/search/3861741/?q=hydraulic+fluid&o=relevance

Reading a bit on this it appears that an ISO 15 hyd. fluid will be roughly a 15 cSt fluid while PSF tends to be a 7.5 cSt fluid, or roughly half the viscosity of the hyd fluid. Graphically:

standard-conversion.jpg


Some of the comments that I've read imply that using hyd fluid in a PS will make everything except a Ford pump run quietly when they didn't before.
 

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
9,384
Loc.
PNW
This is why I run syn in my PS pump as the cold starts when sitting outside at 10deg F or less definitely creates a whine... like loud!

I tried the fluid GM recommends for all their vehicles used in the Alaskan oil fields and wherever and it was much quieter. Then I swapped to RedLine when I put in my ram assist years ago and it was even quieter...

Florida weather might not be an issue but I've never had a whine since switching
 
OP
OP
ba123

ba123

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 29, 2022
Messages
1,957
Loc.
CA
I'm really interested in the comparisons of what's best in a PS system as I've only thought about it heavily on other uses like engine/trans/gear before...

For Viscosity, the Amsoil Super Shift I use is about the same as PS at 7.1 cSt hot but maybe better when cold at 41cSt?

I don't notice any noise at all from the pump but I'm gonna have to check again...but I'm pretty darn sure I listened to EVERYTHING after that belt squeal/pully misalignment issue.

I'm also curious about the seal swelling thing. I did some searches about what makes ATF seal swelling and I don't see any of those additives in this Amsoil, but I am def no expert on that.

Anyone want to take a look that knows more?
https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g1646.pdf
https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/msds/art.pdf
 
OP
OP
ba123

ba123

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 29, 2022
Messages
1,957
Loc.
CA
@toddz69 The hose I had on there the first time said it was Fuel/Transmission/Power Steering but really seemed like just a fuel hose. The new hose I got seems like a good PS hose, seems higher quality, thinner and textured exterior. It also was much better with the bend around from the pump to the reservoir, although that Aeroquip hose hose you haveis prob great as well.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B014XF44WW/?tag=classicbroncos-20

Seemed like once you find the right terms to search (non-perforated, rolled-edge, lined, Fuel-Injection...), clamps are easy to find online but usually you want to buy $15 worth of clamps and pay another $15 shipping. For clamps that are easy to get and not double the price in shipping, I found these non-perforated raised edge clamps.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C3QHTX1N/?tag=classicbroncos-20

Hoping for a test drive today in this rain break.
 

jamesroney

Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
1,944
Loc.
Fremont, CA
I replaced the hose and it looks good, but pouring rain the past few days so can't test.

I asked Lee's how much for just the pump since I don't need the kit and it's not cheap but not outrageous so maybe I'll do that at some point if I ever want more. BUT, one thing I noticed on their info page is that they recommend their own PS fluid or "AC Delco or Valvoline non synthetic power steering fluid will work as a second choice" and not to "USE ATF OR ANY TYPE OF SYNTHETIC FLUID". Pretty sure the Ford spec is Type F ATF and I'm using Synthetic Amsoil Super Shift ATF (Type F Spec).

What are people's thoughts on this? Or am I opening a whole other can of worms that's already been hashed out?
Yes, it's a bad hose. No, a worm clamp is not the cause of the leak. A stainless worm clamp on a 1/2 inch hose is good for 150 psi working pressure, and 300 psi burst. The problem with a worm clamp is that it does not provide constant tension (as noted by @Broncobowsher ) and it will destroy the hose jacket over time. But the jacket of a hose does not carry the liquid. So yes, it's a poor clamp, but NOT because it leaks on installation.

You have already opened the worm can, and now it's time to take a breath. So one question: "Are you ever going to run hydro assist?"

Everybody kinda knows this, but I'm going to repeat it here.
1. Power steering pumps are rated for a particular flow at target rpm. But we use them at idle. So the published flow rates are generally incorrect for our use case.
2. There are basically three types of power steering pump. Submerged inlet, gravity fed, and forced inlet.
3. There are several different volumes of vane pump based on pump diameter, and vane length.
3a. The names of the pumps are intentionally obscure. But Saginaw P, GM type 2, TC, CB, and CBR are most common.

Thankfully, there are aftermarket companies that have done a lot of research and measurement. And what we find out is that the large vane GM P pump produces the most volume at idle. The Ford/Thompson Bronco PS pump puts out the least. Then we learn that the gravity fed pumps can starve at high flow rates. So a ported inlet TC pump can outflow a CB pump. At the end of the day, I have concluded that it is the inlet feeding of these pumps that becomes the constraint. If you can manage to force feed the inlet, the pump can pump much more volume. But of course you need to vent it or bleed it. When I put hydro-assist on my TJ, I needed to "aim" the return port directly at the inlet port of the vanes, and it significantly increased capacity. This was achieved by just swapping the reservoir from Wrangler to Wagoneer with a "directed" return.

As soon as you install a remote vented reservoir...you have eliminated any dynamic force feed ability. Which is fine. You are just back to gravity fed, and as long as flow rates are low, there is no problem. The first failure occurs when the flow rate exceeds the gravity rate, and you starve the inlet. Somebody figured out that a 3/4 inch supply line alleviates that. The whole effort is to try to keep the inlet vanes flooded or "submerged." So you have to ask...Why not just run a submerged pump?

That's the nice thing about the Explorer serpentine "Saginaw P-pump" conversion. It starts with a submerged pump.

None of that helps you with fluid selection, but I think if you run a large vane p-pump...any fluid will work. If you run a remote reservoir TC pump...you have to do a lot more thinking.

oops, credit to @ntsqd you posted while I was typing...
 
OP
OP
ba123

ba123

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 29, 2022
Messages
1,957
Loc.
CA
Always good info from you James…

Not sure what type of pump the Explorer pump is but that’s what I have. It is somewhat force-fed as the reservoir is pressurized.

As mentioned, I don’t need a different pump as this one seems to work—I did look into the Saginaw conversion while building but due to my space limitations, I can’t use any of those brackets. So, my only upgrade possibility is the Lee’s pump that is an Explorer pump housing converted to Saginaw.

I sent another question back to Lee’s on fluid since the line was open and they seemed responsive…I’ll post what they say.

I also don’t have any need for any hydro assist steering as my steering works great so far but will keep that in mind if I ever feel like I need more…and speaking of steering, anyone figure out a good solution to starting stops? Would be nice to not rub my tires on my radius arms.
 

jamesroney

Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
1,944
Loc.
Fremont, CA
Always good info from you James…

Not sure what type of pump the Explorer pump is but that’s what I have. It is somewhat force-fed as the reservoir is pressurized.

As mentioned, I don’t need a different pump as this one seems to work—I did look into the Saginaw conversion while building but due to my space limitations, I can’t use any of those brackets. So, my only upgrade possibility is the Lee’s pump that is an Explorer pump housing converted to Saginaw.

I sent another question back to Lee’s on fluid since the line was open and they seemed responsive…I’ll post what they say.

I also don’t have any need for any hydro assist steering as my steering works great so far but will keep that in mind if I ever feel like I need more…and speaking of steering, anyone figure out a good solution to starting stops? Would be nice to not rub my tires on my radius arms.
If you are only running a normal steering box, the factory explorer pump is more than adequate. HB doesn't use any significant volume.

If you get an urge to port your pump, or machine it for a fitting, let me know and we can do one here just for fun.

I'd like to see the inside of one, and since I seem to throw them all away, I don't have one right now.
 
OP
OP
ba123

ba123

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 29, 2022
Messages
1,957
Loc.
CA
If you are only running a normal steering box, the factory explorer pump is more than adequate. HB doesn't use any significant volume.

If you get an urge to port your pump, or machine it for a fitting, let me know and we can do one here just for fun.

I'd like to see the inside of one, and since I seem to throw them all away, I don't have one right now.
That sounds like a plan and I’ll take you up on that soon if this hose swap doesn’t work out or later if it does…either way it’s a good idea. I hate the stock hose pump fitting.

For the fluid question, Lee’s already got back to me and this is their response:

“We see the ATF cavitate way worse than non-synthetic fluid. We also see it swell and harden o-rings over time...but some of that may be due to heat from the increased cavitation. We get Ford gearbox cores through here all the time, and the o-rings are usually in pretty bad shape. Compared to far older Chevy cores where most of the o-rings are still in decent shape. We also have some race teams that run synthetic steering fluid, not ATF. I don't get many cavitation complaints from them, but they usually run higher fluid temps. That could be down to other factors (size of cooler etc.), but I have seen guys drop 10-15 degrees by switching to our fluid. “
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,794
Loc.
Upper SoKA
That ATF cavitates worse than PSF is interesting. Lower surface tension, maybe? Sealing either of them can be a trial, so that makes me question that.

If you haven't purchased those clamps off amazon I'd strongly suggest going and looking at the ABA clamps. Everything about them says "This is how a hose clamp SHOULD be made."
 
OP
OP
ba123

ba123

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 29, 2022
Messages
1,957
Loc.
CA
I did come across those ABA clamps and they look great. They make a black one which would be ideal for me. I plan on replacing all with these or similar when I can. Just need to work through other issues first. These are actually the ones I tried to get but the clamps I wanted were like $13 total from Belmetric and then $15 to ship. Maybe worth it when I finish my list of all clamps and replace with a larger order.
 

toddz69

Sponsor/Vendor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
10,510
So, my only upgrade possibility is the Lee’s pump that is an Explorer pump housing converted to Saginaw.
The Lee Explorer pump is actually a CBR pump with some modifications.

Todd Z.
 
OP
OP
ba123

ba123

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 29, 2022
Messages
1,957
Loc.
CA
The Lee Explorer pump is actually a CBR pump with some modifications.

Todd Z.
I don't know the difference but this is what it says on the Lee's page:

"This Power Steering Pump Kit replaces the Ford steering pump with our High-Performance Saginaw CB pump that has been modified with ported housing, chromoly shaft, and full needle bearing complement."
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,794
Loc.
Upper SoKA
Is there a thread describing each of the different types of PS pumps? If not, collectively I'll guess we have enough expertise to write one?
 

toddz69

Sponsor/Vendor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
10,510
I don't know the difference but this is what it says on the Lee's page:

"This Power Steering Pump Kit replaces the Ford steering pump with our High-Performance Saginaw CB pump that has been modified with ported housing, chromoly shaft, and full needle bearing complement."
Oops - yeah, CB, not CBR.

Todd Z.
 

toddz69

Sponsor/Vendor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
10,510
Is there a thread describing each of the different types of PS pumps? If not, collectively I'll guess we have enough expertise to write one?
Not that I've seen but I've done a little rabbit holing on this stuff in the past few years. I'm sure @jamesroney and @Yeller can add and correct to my understanding of the Saginaw pumps.

Three basic types for our consideration:

Saginaw "P" pump - aka the canned ham pump that most of us are familiar with. Used on zillions of different vehicles over the years. Usually dead reliable - submerged pump like James mentioned earlier. Also used with remote reservoir configurations - most notably with Chevy Astro vans in stock configurations.

Saginaw Type II/TC pump - small pump used with remote reservoirs (mostly - although plenty of late model stuff now uses them with a plastic attached reservoir). Very modifiable and best choice for high rpm use and most often seen in car applications. Shaft rides on roller bearings while P and CB pump shafts ride on bushings.

CB/CBR pump - similar form factor to Type II pumps but better capacity for systems needing more volume and pressure for hydro steering/hydroboost, etc. Always used with remote reservoirs afaik. Not used on as many oem offerings as the Type II and P pumps.

Todd Z.
 

jamesroney

Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
1,944
Loc.
Fremont, CA
Not that I've seen but I've done a little rabbit holing on this stuff in the past few years. I'm sure @jamesroney and @Yeller can add and correct to my understanding of the Saginaw pumps.

Three basic types for our consideration:

Saginaw "P" pump - aka the canned ham pump that most of us are familiar with. Used on zillions of different vehicles over the years. Usually dead reliable - submerged pump like James mentioned earlier. Also used with remote reservoir configurations - most notably with Chevy Astro vans in stock configurations.

Saginaw Type II/TC pump - small pump used with remote reservoirs (mostly - although plenty of late model stuff now uses them with a plastic attached reservoir). Very modifiable and best choice for high rpm use and most often seen in car applications. Shaft rides on roller bearings while P and CB pump shafts ride on bushings.

CB/CBR pump - similar form factor to Type II pumps but better capacity for systems needing more volume and pressure for hydro steering/hydroboost, etc. Always used with remote reservoirs afaik. Not used on as many oem offerings as the Type II and P pumps.

Todd Z.
We gotta be careful with the language a bit. So you are going to need to invent a new term. The P pump is indeed the canned ham pump, and it is a submerged pump. But the "remote reservoir" is confusing and a little bit of a misnomer. In the Astro Van, and in the C-K truck with AC...there are TWO reservoirs. It does indeed have a remote reservoir...but it ALSO has an integral reservoir. I hesitate to call it a "dual reservoir" because that nomenclature is associated with a dual return reservoir. So I'm happy to call it a remote reservoir, as long as we both know that it kinda isn't. I think of it as a "surge tank" not unlike the one found in the cooling system on a 66-68 Bronco.

The point is that the primary flow of the P-pump return is back into the integral reservoir, and the remote (filling) reservoir is really just a convenient filling and venting location. Sure, the Astro returns the hydroboost back into the surge tank, but the volume is trivial. The K-truck with surge tank has the dual return.

The "Transverse Compact" pump drives me bananas, because of course by the time you integrate a reservoir, and you put it in an F-body...it is neither Transferse, nor Compact. But hey...I guess Saginaw gets to name their own stuff. Type 2 seems like a much better name.

Anyway, the 2017 Chevy 2500 Vortec 6.0 comes with an integral reservoir CBR pump. The Jeep guys chop off the fill neck and shorten it to fit under the hood. Gets you a "cheap" CBR pump.
 

toddz69

Sponsor/Vendor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
10,510
Good point on the 2 reservoir clarification. That's a much better description. Attached a shot of the PSC version which is extra sporty since it has a -10 AN return fitting on it (sold one of these on here recently).

Todd Z.
 

Attachments

  • pump.JPG
    pump.JPG
    11.7 KB · Views: 17
Top