1978 302 vs earlier / PS bracket

[CopperBronco]

I’m installing a new Saginaw pump on my Bronco, which has a 1978 302 in it, serial says it came from a Lincoln continental… but made in Detroit… also has a reverse water pump on it(not sure this matters). the Saginaw PS tensioning bracket that came with the pump has the two bolt holes on the bracket to the block as flush to one another, but my bolt holes on the engine block are offset, the bottom bolt hold protrudes out further than the top by a small bit. I can’t find the bracket I need by searching online so far. Can anyone help?

my elementary understanding is that all 302’s are mostly the same. Not sure why the bracket I got came this way as I specified the engine when ordering.

 

[CopperBronco]

Still want to find new bracket as old will do for now, but it’s beat to crap by PO. Also new Duff Saginaw reservoir bracket is an 1” longer than old one… sad to do this, but gonna have to cut that round tube that connects to the block to align the pulley, is that odd? I guess I kind of expected it to line up better. Call me out if I’m being dumb.

 

[Broncobowsher]

You are fighting the different accessory mounts that Ford did over the years, and models, and even options...
That water pump looks like a V-belt, so that will be standard rotation. It spins the same direction as the crankshaft. The reverse rotation pump rides on the back side of a flat serpentine belt (smooth flat pulley) and it spins backwards of the crankshaft. But they all flow in the same direction, out of the radiator and into the block, up into the heads, and out through the intake manifold to the thermostat.

Back to the accessory drive. That changed so many times over the years, add in swapped stuff around... You have have a '78 engine, but that doesn't mean that is what accessory drive you have. In general the accessory drive can be swapped out between any year/package small block ford. But they normally need to be swapped as a whole package. More often than not you can't mix a bracket from here and a pulley from there. Now park of that accessory drive package is the water pump. Often there are bosses for mounting brackets. There are even different locations for the waterpump shaft (distance between centerline to the crankshaft).

One thing about stock Bronco stuff is they are slightly unicorn parts. The Bronco kept the 3-bolt crankshaft pulley configuration all the way up to '77. Where most other Fords all converted to a 4-bolt crankshaft pulley in 1970. An oddity besides the Bronco is the Econoline that kept the 3-bolt pulley through '74. So a quick check if you probably have a Bronco (or early Econoline, or pre-'70) accessory drive is to check the crankshaft pulley to damper and count the bolts. 4-bolts, later non-Bronco accessory drive.

Sorry, no specific answers for you. Just pointing out the mess that is the small block accessory drive and we don't know what you are working with. While it may be a '78 engine, the crank pulley is generally much longer and doesn't normally fit the Bronco. So the Bronco crank damper and lower pulley are used. But was everything else changed as well? Do the pulleys even align with each other? How many modified spacers and brackets were there before you started? I've done mix and match, piled a quarter inch of pulley alignment spacers under the water pump pulley, ran adjuster arms on the wrong side of the alternator, cut down alternator spacers, stacked washers... Many of us have had to.

 

[CopperBronco]

You are fighting the different accessory mounts that Ford did over the years, and models, and even options...
That water pump looks like a V-belt, so that will be standard rotation. It spins the same direction as the crankshaft. The reverse rotation pump rides on the back side of a flat serpentine belt (smooth flat pulley) and it spins backwards of the crankshaft. But they all flow in the same direction, out of the radiator and into the block, up into the heads, and out through the intake manifold to the thermostat.

Back to the accessory drive. That changed so many times over the years, add in swapped stuff around... You have have a '78 engine, but that doesn't mean that is what accessory drive you have. In general the accessory drive can be swapped out between any year/package small block ford. But they normally need to be swapped as a whole package. More often than not you can't mix a bracket from here and a pulley from there. Now park of that accessory drive package is the water pump. Often there are bosses for mounting brackets. There are even different locations for the waterpump shaft (distance between centerline to the crankshaft).

One thing about stock Bronco stuff is they are slightly unicorn parts. The Bronco kept the 3-bolt crankshaft pulley configuration all the way up to '77. Where most other Fords all converted to a 4-bolt crankshaft pulley in 1970. An oddity besides the Bronco is the Econoline that kept the 3-bolt pulley through '74. So a quick check if you probably have a Bronco (or early Econoline, or pre-'70) accessory drive is to check the crankshaft pulley to damper and count the bolts. 4-bolts, later non-Bronco accessory drive.

Sorry, no specific answers for you. Just pointing out the mess that is the small block accessory drive and we don't know what you are working with. While it may be a '78 engine, the crank pulley is generally much longer and doesn't normally fit the Bronco. So the Bronco crank damper and lower pulley are used. But was everything else changed as well? Do the pulleys even align with each other? How many modified spacers and brackets were there before you started? I've done mix and match, piled a quarter inch of pulley alignment spacers under the water pump pulley, ran adjuster arms on the wrong side of the alternator, cut down alternator spacers, stacked washers... Many of us have had to.

Got it… yeah no idea what PO did. Dropped a hodge podge of parts into his restoration, often poorly done, I’m fixing it now. I just cut the reservoir bracket down to match the old and bolted it on. I’ll take a look at bolts in AM. The Saginaw is a bit off square to the engine block, might need to shim with some washers and put a sleeve inside the reservoir bracket tube that connects to the engine block as it’s slipping as I tighten since tube I.D. is larger than the stud… this is causing some slippage as I tighten down. See second photo…

 

[CopperBronco]

You are fighting the different accessory mounts that Ford did over the years, and models, and even options...
That water pump looks like a V-belt, so that will be standard rotation. It spins the same direction as the crankshaft. The reverse rotation pump rides on the back side of a flat serpentine belt (smooth flat pulley) and it spins backwards of the crankshaft. But they all flow in the same direction, out of the radiator and into the block, up into the heads, and out through the intake manifold to the thermostat.

Back to the accessory drive. That changed so many times over the years, add in swapped stuff around... You have have a '78 engine, but that doesn't mean that is what accessory drive you have. In general the accessory drive can be swapped out between any year/package small block ford. But they normally need to be swapped as a whole package. More often than not you can't mix a bracket from here and a pulley from there. Now park of that accessory drive package is the water pump. Often there are bosses for mounting brackets. There are even different locations for the waterpump shaft (distance between centerline to the crankshaft).

One thing about stock Bronco stuff is they are slightly unicorn parts. The Bronco kept the 3-bolt crankshaft pulley configuration all the way up to '77. Where most other Fords all converted to a 4-bolt crankshaft pulley in 1970. An oddity besides the Bronco is the Econoline that kept the 3-bolt pulley through '74. So a quick check if you probably have a Bronco (or early Econoline, or pre-'70) accessory drive is to check the crankshaft pulley to damper and count the bolts. 4-bolts, later non-Bronco accessory drive.

Sorry, no specific answers for you. Just pointing out the mess that is the small block accessory drive and we don't know what you are working with. While it may be a '78 engine, the crank pulley is generally much longer and doesn't normally fit the Bronco. So the Bronco crank damper and lower pulley are used. But was everything else changed as well? Do the pulleys even align with each other? How many modified spacers and brackets were there before you started? I've done mix and match, piled a quarter inch of pulley alignment spacers under the water pump pulley, ran adjuster arms on the wrong side of the alternator, cut down alternator spacers, stacked washers... Many of us have had to.

any idea how parallel pulleys need to be? This Saginaw wants to keep going on a hair crooked… see photos. Any help for tolerances much appreciated.

 

[jamesroney]

any idea how parallel pulleys need to be? This Saginaw wants to keep going on a hair crooked… see photos. Any help for tolerances much appreciated.

Pulleys should be as straight as possible, and you should not be able to see any misalignment. I always use a straightedge, and try to hold less than 1/8 inch per foot of angular misalignment. ( Typical v-belt specs are 1 degree, which is about .25 inch per foot). They last longer and don’t throw belts.

It is important to point out that Ford changed the crank pulley from 3 bolt to 4 bolt in 1970 in the passenger car…but they ALSO changed the water pump inlet, and the primary belt configuration at the same time. @Broncobowsher is giving you some great info above. But it’s not JUST the number of bolts on the damper. The 3-4 bolt change coincides with a different pulley offset, and a different pulley belt width.

The 65-69 Ford had a passenger side water inlet, a drivers side timing pointer, and the Alternator belt drove the water pump. In 1970, the damper changed, the water inlet moved, the timing pointer moved, the primary belt got wider, and the power steering belt ran the water pump. This created a big problem for manual steering applications, including Bronco and Econoline Van. So those didn’t change.

When the water pump changed inlet sides, it also changed the fan height, and a bunch of mounting boss provisions were added. This makes the 70+ (car) water pump generally incompatible with the 69- pulleys.

You have a 1978 water pump and crank pulley system on a 65-69 (or 65-73 van or 66-77 Bronco). Power steering bracket.

I’m not telling you it can’t be made to work, but you are re-inventing a wheel that has been invented countless times already. I did this once so that I could raise the fan and keep my factory damper with a 5.0 in a flatfender. But there’s no reason to engineer a new solution when EVERY Bronco vendor has a packaged solution for you.

The 1967-1969 Ford Intermediate w/PS accessory package is functionally identical to the 76-77 Bronco w/PS accessory package. There is some wierdness with air conditioner and thermactor on the 67 and 68. So that’s why the “go-to” application is a 1969 Mustang 302 with PS.

Every piece of that solution is now reproduced.

 

[CopperBronco]

Pulleys should be as straight as possible, and you should not be able to see any misalignment. I always use a straightedge, and hold less than 1/32 inch per foot of angular misalignment.

It is important to point out that Ford changed the crank pulley from 3 bolt to 4 bolt in 1970 in the passenger car…but they ALSO changed the water pump inlet, and the primary belt configuration at the same time. @Broncobowsher is giving you some great info above. But it’s not JUST the number of bolts on the damper. The 3-4 bolt change coincides with a different pulley offset, and a different pulley belt width.

The 65-69 Ford had a passenger side water inlet, a drivers side timing pointer, and the Alternator belt drove the water pump. In 1970, the damper changed, the water inlet moved, the timing pointer moved, the primary belt got wider, and the power steering belt ran the water pump. This created a big problem for manual steering applications, including Bronco and Econoline Van. So those didn’t change.

When the water pump changed inlet sides, it also changed the fan height, and a bunch of mounting boss provisions were added. This makes the 70+ (car) water pump generally incompatible with the 69- pulleys.

You have a 1978 water pump and crank pulley system on a 65-69 (or 65-73 van or 66-77 Bronco). Power steering bracket.

I’m not telling you it can’t be made to work, but you are re-inventing a wheel that has been invented countless times already. I did this once so that I could raise the fan and keep my factory damper with a 5.0 in a flatfender. But there’s no reason to engineer a new solution when EVERY Bronco vendor has a packaged solution for you.

The 1967-1969 Ford Intermediate w/PS accessory package is functionally identical to the 76-77 Bronco w/PS accessory package. There is some wierdness with air conditioner and thermactor on the 67 and 68. So that’s why the “go-to” application is a 1969 Mustang 302 with PS.

Every piece of that solution is now reproduced.

thanks everyone! I got it in and aligned pulleys. One detail question… is there a reason the return line between gear box and Saginaw has so much metal in it near the gear box? I’m plumbing my return line and the new return nipple on the Saginaw is at the bottom whereas my old one the nipple was up top… wanting to cut down the return line metal a bit to reduce chances of kink in rubber hose since it now wants to do a tight loop to connect to each other. Wondered if metal in PS return line is for heat dissipation.

 

[jamesroney]

thanks everyone! I got it in and aligned pulleys. One detail question… is there a reason the return line between gear box and Saginaw has so much metal in it near the gear box? I’m plumbing my return line and the new return nipple on the Saginaw is at the bottom whereas my old one the nipple was up top… wanting to cut down the return line metal a bit to reduce chances of kink in rubber hose since it now wants to do a tight loop to connect to each other. Wondered if metal in PS return line is for heat dissipation.

Nope, the metal section of the return line is just there to keep the rubber hose away from any potential contact points. The heat dissipation is supposed to happen in the finned cooler mounted above the pump. If you install the factory cooler, then the hose assembly that you have will work fine. If you delete the cooler, then you will probably want to shorten the metal portion.

There is no doubt that some amount of heat transfer happens in the metallic tube, but that is not the primary function. Taking out a few inches won't matter.