Another question for the paint gurus

[Oakland Bronco]

This is what I need to paint:

* Gel coat fiberglass door panels and interior rear quarter panels
* Stock dash
* Stock steering column

Color is black, and I want to paint them with the same paint for a matching color, sheen, and finish. Recommendations?

 

[sp71eb]

If you want something quick and easy just use SEM trim black. Its a rattle can paint that is pretty low gloss and dries to a nice finish and is pretty durable. It holds up better than any krylon or other cheaper spray paint. You should be able to find it at any local body shop jobber.

 

[allenfahey]

I would start by sanding them with 320 and a red scuff pad. Then spray sealer on them. What are you trying to do with the color? Are you trying to get a gloss, satin, or flat finish? You can get single stage black and add flattening agent to get the desired gloss or lack of. You can also spray it in base coat and add the flattening agent to the clear if the paint line has that option.

You can also spray it like sp71eb said which is cheapest way to do it but isn't as durable. I would at least prime and finish the primer in 600 and a grey scuff pad or use the sealer prior to the SEM. I prefer Mar-hyde black satin product number 3811. Either one will give you a satin finish.

 

[JGZ]

On the fiberglass parts ,make sure you clean them with wax and grease remover to get off any mold releases that may be present before sanding.Should be much,but its good insurance.

 

[allenfahey]

Good point JGZ. Always use wax and grease remover prior to sanding and paint for any part. Also prior to paint use a tack rag.

 

[ccbronco]

I don't mean to hijack your thread but I will. I am about to paint my column and I find the paint appears to have a very light metallic in it. Does anyone have a code that they have found?

 

[werock71]

Depends on the type of job you want to do-- as the previous posts have stated. Also depends on the condition of all the parts. My process listed below:

1) Clean all parts with denatured alcohol.
2) scuff sand all parts with 320-400 grit.
3) Wash prime (phosphoric acid etch primer-- not the fiberglass).
4) Epoxy prime.
5) Urethane prime seal coat.
6) Topcoat with paint of choice.

A professional job would start with all bare uncoated (sandblasted for steel parts). Also, every coat of primer (not the wash primer) would be scuff sanded in between coats. May seem like a lot of work, but it's either done right or done good'nuff.

 

[badmuttstang]

As stated clean with wax and grease remover before sanding and after just before painting and dont touch it with bare hand after last cleaning. If your trying to match the color and dont feel comfortable using a spray gun you can go and have a paint supplier mix some up and put it in a spray can. I like napa when it comes to stock paints and they are the cheapest I have found to have a rattle can made up.

 

[Oakland Bronco]

Thanks for all of the feedback, guys. Responding to a few questions below:

What are you trying to do with the color? Are you trying to get a gloss, satin, or flat finish?

What I am trying to avoid is having interior panels, dash, and steering column that all look different. I'm installing a family cage, and will probably paint that with a different sheen/texture to break up the interior, but I want the rest of the interior paint to look the same. Don't want the inside looking like a patchwork job.

Color: Just a nice deep black
Finish: Nothing too shiny. Probably satin.

Depends on the type of job you want to do-- as the previous posts have stated. Also depends on the condition of all the parts.

Type of job: Not looking for a concourse job here. Just want it to look good and hold up to general use and the occasional wipe down.
Condition of the parts: Fiberglass is brand new and still wrapped up and in the box. Dash was damaged in the fire, so will be sand blasted. Don't know about the column, probably just sanded smooth.

 

[allenfahey]

If you can finish the column and dash in bare metal with 320 and a red scuff pad all you need is sealer. No need to prime it unless there is bodywork to be done. If that is the way you go use either an epoxy sealer or use etching primer, let flash then use 2K sealer. Let the sealer flash then apply paint. That would be the quickest and cheapest way to do it.

 

[Oakland Bronco]

Thanks for all the feedback, Allen!

 

[werock71]

A concourse job would/ should include sending out all metal parts for original factory plating. This could include iron or magnesium phosphating, CAD plating, or chrome plating.

Wash primer passivates the bare steel or aluminum and keeps further corrosion from taking place. It also does not allow corrosion to spread should the coatings become compromised to the substrate. Keys swinging on the dash come to mind. It also provides an excellent surface for further coating.

Automotive sealers are used to provide a barrier coat between paint jobs. They are not used to prime/seal..er bare steel. Sealing or priming directly over untreated substrates is half ass in my opinion. If you have to spray anything at all, you might as well spray the right shizit.

Sealer over fiberglass? Not epoxy primer? That "sealer" would be a ground breaking product of it existed. Even the second choice of a polyester primer is still called... wait for it....Primer.

Best of luck with your project.

 

[allenfahey]

Automotive sealers are used to provide a barrier coat between paint jobs. They are not used to prime/seal..er bare steel. Sealing or priming directly over untreated substrates is half ass in my opinion. If you have to spray anything at all, you might as well spray the right shizit.

Sealer over fiberglass? Not epoxy primer? That "sealer" would be a ground breaking product of it existed. Even the second choice of a polyester primer is still called... wait for it....Primer.

Best of luck with your project.

I've been doing this for a living for 20 years. THIS is the TDS (technical data sheet) or the directions for the 5400 sealer in Spies. On page 2 you can see you use it directly on fiberglass and overtop etching on bare metal just like I described above in a prior post. This is the same procedure for all paint lines I've used and been to classes for PPG, Dupont, Sherwin Williams, Standox, ect. All of which have lifetime warranties since I was certified in them. If there is a failure the paint company will pay to redo it at their expense. I have never had to redo a paint job for warranty issues.

I agree e-coat is the best substrate but in the real world we don't e-coat parts thus the reason for etching and sealer.

 

[werock71]

I'm always Leary of products that don't tell you what the base resin is. Since this is a hardner added 2 part system, and also states that it is a "surfacer", not a "sealer", I'm going with urethane as a guess since the mfgr doesn't trust you with that information. Also, I'd need to see ASTM adhesion tests for this product before I'd even consider using it. Regardless, epoxy resins, urethane resins, acrylic resins, polyester resins do not etch metal.

You must have skipped the Special Notes section on page 2 that recommends their brand of wash primer for corrosion protection over bare metal. Good call on their part.

My industry certifications don't come from manufacturers that are trying to sell me an all inclusive product. Each coating has a very specific function in a coating system. Just because a manufacturer tells me their product is ok to use on a "suitable substrate", does not mean that is what is best. And if this product is a urethane, I would not use it as a first coat on fiberglass when epoxy or polyester products are readily available.

 

[sp71eb]

Depends on the type of job you want to do-- as the previous posts have stated. Also depends on the condition of all the parts. My process listed below:

1) Clean all parts with denatured alcohol.
2) scuff sand all parts with 320-400 grit.
3) Wash prime (phosphoric acid etch primer-- not the fiberglass).
4) Epoxy prime.
5) Urethane prime seal coat.
6) Topcoat with paint of choice.

A professional job would start with all bare uncoated (sandblasted for steel parts). Also, every coat of primer (not the wash primer) would be scuff sanded in between coats. May seem like a lot of work, but it's either done right or done good'nuff.

Your telling me you etch and also epoxy prime? Another thing is that if you stay within the specified recoat time window found in the products p-pages you don't have to sand between coats of undercoats.

 

[werock71]

Epoxy primer does not treat the metal. The etching primer (wash primer) is applied to treat the metal-- meaning, it passivates the metal, removes any organic contaminants (slight oil, fingerprints), and provides a solid foundation to apply the next coating.

Zinc and chromated primers are sacrificial in nature. When moisture penetrates the topcoat, the zinc or chromate in the cured primer dissolves and runs into the damaged area to protect the surface from corrosion. Carried in a epoxy binder, they also provide excellent chemical resistance to a variety of automotive fluids that will bubble up and eat through most topcoats and surfacers (sealers). But, if the damaged area remains open too long, corrosion will spread. The job of the wash primer is to keep the corrosion from creeping underneath the rest of the paint job.

Sure, no sanding is between coats is required when properly applied in a very clean and well equipped shop. My recommendation took into consideration that most DIYers won't be spaying in a very clean well equipped area.

My recommendation on using the epoxy primer then a sealer surfacer on all the parts are based on his desire for all the parts to look the same. If all the parts have the same primer before topcoat, they stand a much better chance of looking the same; depending on the applicators skill level.

 

[jcpetrson]

Another question for the Paint Gurus - What's a good cleaning agent for wax, grease, etc. prior to paint that one can get at the retail store (i.e., HD, Lowes, etc.)?

 

[werock71]

I wouldn't recommend, and know of no single solvent from the hardware stores that I would trust with paint prep.

To clean bare metal, all the solvents (i.e., mineral spirits, laquer thinner, alcohol, naptha, MEK, acetone) have been used as degreasers. However, unless the surface is kept wet long enough to be dried with a clean cloth, you generally end up just spreading the contaminant around.

As far as prep right before application, I'd get the correct product (whether bare substrate or pre-topcoat) from an automotive paint supplier. It will cost more than trying to mix something yourself, but you'll end up spending (very well spent) 25-35 dollars to save yourself from buying another $350.00 to $500.00 (when coating a complete vehicle) worth of topcoat because you have to repaint the vehicle.

 

[allenfahey]

I'm not a chemist but I trust the chemists that make the products I use. If they say use the epoxy directly on the metal I will use it on the bare metal. PPG's DP40 is an epoxy and you do not use any etching under it it unless it's aluminum. Currently I use the Spies paint line and use 4075 before the 5400. The 4075 is a 2 part "etch" primer. The can does tell me the base and all the orther chemicals in it but I could care less.... If the chemist say to use it I use it and feel confident it will hold up. From 13+ years at a Ford dealer I know that PPG, Dupont, Standox, and Spies all are certified paint lines for Ford. I recall someone telling me in a class once the adhesion test is they cut a sample in a tick tac toe pattern and stick tape to it and pull it off. If it peels it fails. They also do salt spray tests on panels.
When I started as a painter helper it was at a Ford dealer back in January 93. I was hired to strip the F-series pickups that had the peeling problems because the paint companies told Ford they could skip the sealer. The fix was to strip the paint off using chemical stripper and finish sanding in 320. We would then apply the DP40 epoxy primer as a non-sanding sealer. Let it flash and apply base/clear. If there was bodywork to be done that was masked off from the stripper and spot primed, finished in 320 and sealed the same as the metal. We would do 3-4 truck per week for a couple years, 100's of trucks plus the collision work we also did. I was there for another 7 years and had NEVER seen one come back for corrosion problems. I left there and came back a few years later and again never heard of any come back. We used PPG and Dupont on the F-series peelers.

Again I'm not a chemist but if they tell me I don't have to sand e-coat parts prior to using 5400 mixed as a sealer then there must be some kind of chemical adhesion reaction to the e-coat. I have no idea what it does but if they warranty it I could care less! There is either a mechanical bond which is sanding, chemical bond which there is no sanding or a combination of the two. I prefere the combination method and why I sand the outside surfaces of e-coat parts prior to sealer. I don't scuff the undersides though. Once you apply the sealer there is no more sanding from the base coat all the way to the clear coat.
Trust the chemist Oakland Bronco. Read the TDS sheet for the product you want to use and don't deviate from it and you won't have any problems warranty wise.

A decent wax and grease remover that I use which is inexpensive ($17 a gallon) is KEY-90 from Keystone. Keystone is a nation aftermarket parts supplier so you should be able to get it local. Wipe it with a dry lint free rag and dry very well with 2 lint free rags is the way I do it. Leave no residue and work one panel or half a panel at a time.

 

[Fireball05]

Oakland - are you thoroughly confused yet?!

I think you should just use this: