Cam install and now Very Poor performance

[Lon L]

Hi, So, I had pretty much decided to keep the Mountaineer 5.0 in my Bronco instead of doing the Much More expensive Coyote swap. I did want more low end torque and better performance , so I asked around and this was chosen. I went to my local Performance Shop . I had used them previously to install Intake/Exhaust and Dyno Tune my 2013 Camaro SS. That turned out very well. I took the Bronco there and it took much longer than it should have but it was finally ready to pick up. When I arrived they started the engine and right away there was a loud ticking noise, I was told they too thought the noise was too loud and wanted to reinspect the install. So I left it for a couple more days and they looked it over and said everything was installed as it should be and the HE (High Energy) Cam is more noisey and roller rocker arms would help, but will still be louder than normal. So at this point I take the truck home so I can get the EEC sent to Garry for that magic he does. on the drive home the engine wasn't happy under load, some rapping and small backfires over 3000 RPM. I kept my fingers crossed and hoped that a new flash on the EEC would solve my woes.. The freshly flashed EEC arrived in a matter of 3 days (Thanks Garry ;D) . I installed the EEC and fired up the engine and it seemed to run great.
BUT,,,, once I began to drive and accelerate past 2500 RPM it was like it dropped a cylinder . Engine was misfiring and rapping, with a small backfire randomly. Back to the Performance Shop, the owner of the shop and I go for a ride , right away he hears what I described and said he thinks it is going lean. So the Bronco is going back to him next week and he will look at fuel pressure while on the dyno.

My Engine is stock from 97 Mountaineer and prior to Cam it ran pretty good. Just too mild .

Oh well, if you are still here, thanks for reading my Novel and feel free to toss advice

 

[DJs74]

Can you share the cam specs and how it was installed... Advanced, retarded or zero. I cant offer much on the flashing but regardless of the electronics, the camshaft installation is still mechanically set and the cam numbers are important for performance related results


DJs74

 

[DJs74]

Can you share the cam specs and how it was installed... Advanced, retarded or zero. I cant offer much on the flashing but regardless of the electronics, the camshaft installation is still mechanically set and the cam numbers are important for performance related results


DJs74

Sorry... I just realized that the highlighted "this" was the link to the camshaft. Thats a pretty healthy lift and duration camshaft but the RPM range should give you good response off idle. What is your gear ratio and tire size combination? It is true that the high energy cams are a little bit more noisy due to the aggressive lobe ramp angles but shouldn't be unbearable noisy... Roller tip rockers are also normally noisy.
I'm still interested to know how the shop degreed the camshaft but if it's truly and computer / flash issue, I can't offer much... I'm an old school carburetor guy

DJs74

 

[Lon L]

Sorry... I just realized that the highlighted "this" was the link to the camshaft. Thats a pretty healthy lift and duration camshaft but the RPM range should give you good response off idle. What is your gear ratio and tire size combination? It is true that the high energy cams are a little bit more noisy due to the aggressive lobe ramp angles but shouldn't be unbearable noisy... Roller tip rockers are also normally noisy.
I'm still interested to know how the shop degreed the camshaft but if it's truly and computer / flash issue, I can't offer much... I'm an old school carburetor guy

DJs74

Thanks for the reply, I cant answer on how they degreed the CAM. My current gear is 3:50 , but once I get the engine running correctly the Bronco is going to Trans shop for conversion to 4R70w and 4:56 gear. I will post back as I get more info .

 

[spap]

I think the usual noise is the give away. I had some pretty good cams in other cars and remember them being a little noiser but not to the point where it's Concerning maybe a busier mechanical noise but still rhythmic or very even type noise if that makes sense.

I could be wrong, but the longer than usual install time and the noise might point to a bad installation of the cam. Sorry bro. I know crap like this just sucks .

 

[broncogt]

Is the distributer vac. advance can in the same position as before?

If its cranked one way or the other your 1 tooth off on the timing chain.

 

[partsloco]

I actually think the roller F4TE cams that came on the roller 351W and explorer 5.0 is the best cam I ever used in my bronco. I tried 3 different comp cams and the were all noisy. Lots tapping. I used a comp cam extreme energy retrofit roller 282,274 and 268.

 

[00gyrhed]

The F4TE cam is a good cam in 5.0 and basically the same cam as he has without as much lift. I am running the same duration in my 393 but with .533 lift, roller rockers etc. It was loud to the point I took it back to the builder once and pulled the valve covers once or twice. I cheaped out and tried to reuse the old F4TE gaskets so I had to pull the covers anyway. I max HP was 406 at 4900 rpm. Tuner said that was silly and a waste of money, but then in the same breath said it was a blast to drive and would easily pick the front tires off the ground. I got what I wanted and he didn't understand.

Yes these cams are noisy, even to the point of being worrisome. I run 20W-50 and it is very quite now but gets louder in hot weather and the engine temps get up.

The cam noise is not related to your engine is performance unless a lifter slipped off a valve or something like that. I have about 15K miles on mine and the noise is still the same and I am slowly getting to a point where I ignore it.

I strongly recommend you bite the bullet and get a Air/Fuel gauge for any modified EFI engine. You do not want to burn it up over a $200 gauge. I would try to fix anything until that gauge was installed. It is also nice to be able to kind of check up on your tuner.

My 393 started and ran great but 1dled with the AF gauge pegged and ran at 16:1 under mild acceleration. And that was with the fuel pressure at 95 PSI. If I had not had the gauge I might have burned it up. There were other signs as well like cherry red headers and mufflers. But it actually ran better way too lean than it does now.

Tuned on the dyno they should get it right, but sometimes it takes a while as they make it right at WOT and with a cam like that there may be part throttle issues such as ignition ping. Ignition timing can be a strange thing to a tuner when you have a low end torque engine and he is use to tuning to WOT operation on Mustangs. Took me several trips to make mine get the advance right.

I think you have a tune issue, that new cam breaths well due to the lift but it does not scavenge like a longer duration cam. That often mean you can safely put a little more timing advance into the system. If fact some of these high lift short duration camshafts actually have greater EGR tendencies that the sill y EGR valve.

 

[Lon L]

The F4TE cam is a good cam in 5.0 and basically the same cam as he has without as much lift. I am running the same duration in my 393 but with .533 lift, roller rockers etc. It was loud to the point I took it back to the builder once and pulled the valve covers once or twice. I cheaped out and tried to reuse the old F4TE gaskets so I had to pull the covers anyway. I max HP was 406 at 4900 rpm. Tuner said that was silly and a waste of money, but then in the same breath said it was a blast to drive and would easily pick the front tires off the ground. I got what I wanted and he didn't understand.

Yes these cams are noisy, even to the point of being worrisome. I run 20W-50 and it is very quite now but gets louder in hot weather and the engine temps get up.

The cam noise is not related to your engine is performance unless a lifter slipped off a valve or something like that. I have about 15K miles on mine and the noise is still the same and I am slowly getting to a point where I ignore it.

I strongly recommend you bite the bullet and get a Air/Fuel gauge for any modified EFI engine. You do not want to burn it up over a $200 gauge. I would try to fix anything until that gauge was installed. It is also nice to be able to kind of check up on your tuner.

My 393 started and ran great but 1dled with the AF gauge pegged and ran at 16:1 under mild acceleration. And that was with the fuel pressure at 95 PSI. If I had not had the gauge I might have burned it up. There were other signs as well like cherry red headers and mufflers. But it actually ran better way too lean than it does now.

Tuned on the dyno they should get it right, but sometimes it takes a while as they make it right at WOT and with a cam like that there may be part throttle issues such as ignition ping. Ignition timing can be a strange thing to a tuner when you have a low end torque engine and he is use to tuning to WOT operation on Mustangs. Took me several trips to make mine get the advance right.

I think you have a tune issue, that new cam breaths well due to the lift but it does not scavenge like a longer duration cam. That often mean you can safely put a little more timing advance into the system. If fact some of these high lift short duration camshafts actually have greater EGR tendencies that the sill y EGR valve.

I appreciate you sharing your experience with me. I hope to get it back to the shop early next week. I will post when I find out more info.

 

[pcf_mark]

I agree your tune sounds like it needs work. Just for piece of mind I would pull the valve covers and disconnect the coil wire. then have someone crank the engine around while you watch the valves. The should all move the same amount nice and smooth. If you damaged a lift, valve spring (you did change the valve springs right?) or a cam lobe it will be visible.

The recommendation on an AFR tool is a big deal. I do not tune a car without one carb or EFI. With a carb you can squeak by but EFI will burn things.

 

[Rustytruck]

One thought in my head is, do you have the orange or grey injectors?
might be a dumb question but had to ask.

have you pulled some plugs and took a look at them?

 

[Lon L]

Ok, I know it took a while, however here is the update.... I brought the Bronco home today for a short stay and it is running great. The fault was with the fuel pump. Under load it was dropping pressure and was unable to provide the fuel needed, so it would go lean. This was easily fixed with a 255 gph pump from Summit and it also allowed for the new sending unit to be installed.
Now, I hope to get it to the trans shop for the 4R70W swap, Dana 20 reseal, and 4:56 gears.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.