Drag link Question... TIE ROD SETUPS

[Tucknkitty]

Ok-

I've read several times about how important keeping the drag link and track bar parallel and as close to the same length as possible. Looking for some experience with certain setups

1. I have used the wh 3way for the 77 / with the draglink matching as closely as possible - worked great till I went with meatier tires and then had a hard time sourcing replacement ends. I was running 13.5" wide Toyo MTRs 35" (I realize it's also the wide tire driving differently)

2. I now have a variant of the chevy one ton and the drag link is obviously longer and I do notice the steering difference and tie rod rock. I have the cure and it helps but it's not perfect. Been on for about a year and it's time to replace soon. (I drive my rig a lot and take long road trips)

So -

What have you guys experienced? I have always liked the Clydesdale set up from WH - if you need change an end you just replace a cartridge not an entire TRE - meaning no need to realign (which is easy but still) but does this set up still have the tie rod roll? How much longer than the track bar is it? How are the cartridges - sturdy?

I don't want to change over to heim but do like the saddle in the BCB setup.

The chevy Tre setup I have is made so I don't have to ream my knuckles - extreme custom fab- good set up, still have to source tre from his shop. Are the larger chevy Tres stronger and less roll resistant? Worth reaming my knuckes?.

Some of this may be for posterity - my truck drives really good but I do notice the rolling and the extra length of the drag link vs trackbar. I'm gonna replace the ends and trackbar bushings this fall - roughly 10k miles or so between changes. Any suggestions? Is clydesdale worth the cost? Do I go back to the WH 3way again and get used to keeping extra ends on hand? Stay with the chevy setup - it's great when I first get them but they do wear.

Notes:
5-6 deg pos caster
28psi tire pressure
Roughly 1 degree ish camber both sides
3.5" lift and WH springs with bilstien 7100s
No wander / minimal bumpsteer when slamming the brakes (I believe it's the draglink length)

I may just be a perfectionist and this is as good as a lifted short wheel base truck will drive. I replace ends and it's tight steering with positive feel - it goes away as they wear. Is there a better setup out there??

 

[golfobx]

I use the duff set up. It helped over the Chevy 1 ton set up.

 

[jim3326]

I went with the Clydesdale after bending their three-way. I was totally blown away by how much beefier they are. I would think you could put a lot more miles on them before needing to replace the ends, but if you needed to you could replace it on the trail in about 20 min.

 

[DirtDonk]

...I have always liked the Clydesdale set up from WH - if you need change an end you just replace a cartridge not an entire TRE - meaning no need to realign (which is easy but still) but does this set up still have the tie rod roll?

Yes, but not near as much. Potentially it can roll just like the GM stuff since the hole in the tie-rod is at the same angle. But in the case of the Clydesdale, not only are the rod ends very tight in their sockets (maybe even staying that way longer than the GM), but part of the design includes what we call the "Rock Lock" bits, which are thick anti-roll discs that fit between each rod end and knuckle/steering arm. Can be seen in the fourth pic here: http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/CLYDESDALE-Tie-Rod-Drag-Link/Custom_tie_rods showing the four different types of rod ends and their comparative sizes.
This pretty much eliminates the roll. Or at least keeps it to an absolute minimum.

How much longer than the track bar is it?

Roughly the same difference in length (longer) as the "1-ton" setups.
Our "3-way adjustable" heavy duty steering linkage is designed to exactly emulate the factory geometry. But with larger components.
If you're using a '77 front axle with stock disc brakes still, this is the unit: http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Tie_Rod_Drag_Link_3way_Adjustable_7677yr/Custom_tie_rods
Not only does the draglink come in at the same length (you can use your stock draglink with this tie-rod even) but you can turn the tie-rod to mimic the stock 60° angle which reduces the tie-rod roll to a minimum.
Reading further along, I see that you've tried this already? What were some of the details of your experiences?

How are the cartridges - sturdy?

Very!
Of course, stud size-wise the different ones have different sizes, so in that regard can't be much different from other setups. We have them to fit the small '77 stock taper, or larger GM or F150 sizes, or even larger possibly. But usually the center ball-n-stud are not the parts that fail in a rod end anyway (other than getting loose with wear), so in this case size does not seem to be an issue.
With the overall beef of even the smallest, size does not seem to be an issue anywhere on a Clydesdale!

The chevy Tre setup I have is made so I don't have to ream my knuckles - extreme custom fab- good set up, still have to source tre from his shop.

Interesting. Didn't know that. What do they do? Make their own or machine down existing ones to fit the smaller EB holes?

Are the larger chevy Tres stronger and less roll resistant? Worth reaming my knuckes?.

No. Still going to roll because that's what they do. Also going to bend at the point they neck down near the draglink hole.
When brand new the looseness is not a huge deal, but after a little bit of wear (not that much sometimes) they're no longer tight enough to resist rolling. Maybe you've already seen that?
Depending on just what Extreme Custom does to theirs, the bigger standard ones are not likely to be any different where it counts, in the ball-and-socket pivot point.

As far as reaming the knuckles being worth it, not sure. Maybe the bigger studs are stronger, but since I've never heard of an EB-sized stud breaking either, maybe there is an advantage to keeping the holes stock so as not to potentially weaken the steering knuckle itself?
I've heard of those breaking, but even that's not very common.

Some of this may be for posterity - my truck drives really good but I do notice the rolling and the extra length of the drag link vs trackbar.

Yeah, imparts just that little extra bit of vagueness to the steering, right? A little mild bumpsteer too.
You can make the trackbar a few degrees steeper than the draglink, rather than making them exactly parallel. Since the trackbar is now shorter than the draglink, it travels in a different arc. The steeper angle helps to compensate for that on paper. Not sure if it's the total cure in the real world, but it does make a noticeable difference.
It doesn't take much. Like just a few degrees (I don't do the math, but someone here has done it) but it will never completely get rid of the somewhat different feel from stock.

You can minimize both effects however by making sure that your overall angles are as shallow as they can reasonably made to be. If this means custom making mounts, arms or locations, then that's what it takes. Shallower angle on the draglink means less roll even with the incorrect angle of the tie-rod. And shallower angle on both the draglink and trackbar means less overall sideways movement difference between the two bars.

I'm gonna replace the ends and trackbar bushings this fall - roughly 10k miles or so between changes. Any suggestions? Is clydesdale worth the cost?

In a word, yes. But is it perfect (and therefore worth it) for you? Maybe not.
Since one of the main things you're talking about is the way it feels with the longer draglink, getting the lengths and planes they work in back nearer to each other might be worth spending less on and using the 3-way adjustable type of setup.
As far as ours goes, the tie-rod is much beefier than stock at 1.125" diameter (If I remember?) chrome-moly steel and still fully adjustable if you go with the draglink too.
But it sounds like you know this already...

Do I go back to the WH 3way again and get used to keeping extra ends on hand? Stay with the chevy setup - it's great when I first get them but they do wear.

Hmm, so you've used it and had problems with the ends wearing out too soon? Guess the big tires have more effect than I would have thought. The ends should still be at least as strong as the stock ones, if not quite a bit more. Maybe the stiffer tie-rod not flexing like a stock one puts more stress on the ends themselves? Certainly more caster puts more stress on the linkage, but wouldn't have thought that alone would be enough to cause trouble with rod ends.
Or were they breaking?
What about the current GM setup? Do they last longer from a wear standpoint?

I may just be a perfectionist and this is as good as a lifted short wheel base truck will drive. I replace ends and it's tight steering with positive feel - it goes away as they wear.

Maybe you are a perfectionist. But that doesn't mean you're wrong!
Gotta keep trying to get that last little bit of good out of something.
Got pics of your setup we can see?

A little bumpsteer in your setup might not even have been noticeable with manual steering and less caster since you could let the steering wheel float under your hands a bit instead of the vehicle moving sideways. But with power and more caster, all that movement goes right into the truck's chassis instead. Maybe a little movement of the wheel, but I'm guessing not much?

Is there a better setup out there??

Maybe.
Nothing off the shelf that I can think of, but maybe taking what you have and doing some more customizing. You've pretty much discussed all the basic options.
The only thing left would be total custom using some existing stuff (even what you have) with tweaks.

And narrower tires and wheels!!!;D

Anyway, love to see some pics. Again if you've already posted elsewhere.

Thanks

Paul

 

[Tucknkitty]

Thanks

Señor Donk,

Thank you for the response - wanted to wait a few days to get some pics and get a proper response. I just got a new to me 76/77 pitman arm from a member here - I had to drill the old one for the GM conversion. I'm going to swap out the GM for the 3 way (WH) and do some testing. A couple high way runs and some good New England two lane (bumpy and pot hole ridden). To get some driving impressions. I really think whatever vagueness I feel is from the longer drag link and it does get exaspated when the TREs wear. As you can see in the pics these angles are really good and the way I have it set up - is well, the best it's gonna get with the GM type setup (I do have the cure installed).

Appreciate the candor - off to get as close to perfect as possible...

Tnk

 

[DirtDonk]

Thanks for the pics. Yep, the angles are pretty close for sure.
Almost looks though, like the trackbar eye is slightly lower than the draglink end up at the top. That right?
It's so small as to not make much difference normally, but with the shorter trackbar at a shallower angle (instead of slightly steeper) that might make it more noticeable.

Interested to hear how your experiments go.

Paul

 

[Crawdad]

Subscribed!

In your first post you said you "was" running 35"x13.5"s, are you running a different size tire now?

 

[Tucknkitty]

Circling Back

Hey Guys,

Wanted to circle back and add my thoughts on this - just to recap:

1. I felt the GM 1 Ton TRO steering linkage (tight tie rod and drag link ends w/the cure) added a slight vagueness and minor bump steer due to the longer drag link in relation to the track bar. Even with nearly perfect parallel angles.

2 77 EB, 3” SL, 1” BL, 7100 bilstean up front 5125 in back, WH springs up front. Inner Cs rotated by PO (thanks Donsbolt!) - good caster #s, spicer Ball joints, change track bar bushings yearly, new borgensom PS - with steering shaft, serviced wheel bearings. I mention this to add depth to my thoughts - trying to isolate the issue.

3. The truck drives straight and true - normal speeds and around town, BS is very slight. Highway speeds (70-75) - very slight but noticeable. The rougher roads up here in Rhode Island make it noticeable. Again I mean slight, you could waive it off as characteristics of a lifted older truck. But if I romped on the skinny pedal or hit the brakes hard - I would get movement in the wheel.

I switched out the 1 ton set up for an adjustable WH 3 way setup. Truth in lending I had this one on the truck prior but liked the idea of using tres and draglink components i could pick up at the local auto part stores. I used extreme custom fabs set up and it only required drilling out the pitman arm.

I decided after some discussion to go back to the 3 way set up. So I found a 76-77 pitman arm and purchased the ends from WH.

Results:
1. The vagueness is gone. At speed along all types of terrain -again it’s RI and roads can vary on smoothness. No turn of the wheel when getting after it from stand still. I used the same distance and Toe in settings from the previous set up.

2. I want to make this as clear as I can - I don’t believe it’s bc of the new ends, the 1 ton setup were nice and tight and serviced regularly (maybe a year old). The cure did clean up some vagueness but didn’t eliminate it completely.

3. I’ve spent the money on both set ups - this is what worked for me. I believe the vagueness is directly related to length of track bar in relation to longer draglink. I wanted a perfectly driving rig. This took me from great to damn near perfect (sway bar was the deciding factor). Not knocking the setup or any vendor - the 1 ton works well - but if I were to do it over with the way my truck is set up keeping the draglink and trackbar parralel but also as close to the same length was the game changer.

Cheers
Jb

 

[nvrstuk]

To clarify.... you mentioned in the post above that before the drag link was slightly longer. You changed back to the other ends and at that time did you ALSO change the length of the drag link so it is now the same length as your track bar? Is this what you feel made that slight bit of difference? Similar to you, I am also looking for as much street performance at highway speeds as possible but my rig is very dual purpose so it's a bit "give and take"... not much margin for error at 70mph...

Quote from your post-
"3. I’ve spent the money on both set ups - this is what worked for me. I believe the vagueness is directly related to length of track bar in relation to longer draglink. I wanted a perfectly driving rig. This took me from great to damn near perfect (sway bar was the deciding factor). Not knocking the setup or any vendor - the 1 ton works well - but if I were to do it over with the way my truck is set up keeping the draglink and trackbar parralel but also as close to the same length was the game changer."

 

[Tucknkitty]

Nvrstuk,

It’s convoluted I know..sorry.

1. The 1 ton draglink is longer bc it attaches at the tie rod. (You know this - but for clarity for future readers).

2. The WH 3way with correct pitman arm is what I went back to - I purchased new ends from WH, swapped out the pitman arm bc I drilled the one out to accommodate the larger taper 1 ton drag-link.

3. The draglink and track bar are almost the exact same length and on the same plane (the 1 ton was parralel as well).

4. I believe the difference in length is the contributing factor in the vagueness. The cure helps for tie rod roll but not much can be done about the added length of 1 ton set ups.

Hope that helps
TnK

 

[nvrstuk]

thanks...

 

[Crawdad]

Post some pics if you can.