early bronco solenoid

[PGreenlawMD]

Original bronco solenoid. Power coming in on left hand side with multiple attachments to the large post. Small "S" post with green wire with red stripe connected. Small "I" post with brown wire connected. Right large post with cable running to starter.

Powered post has 12 V at all times. Starter post by definition should only have power when cranking the engine.

When should the ''S" post and "I" post read power. I don't have anyone at home right now to crank the engine while I check. Should either the "S" or "I" post have power with the key in the run position but not cranking the engine? The reason I ask is that I have no power on any of the small posts of the solenoid with the key switched to run. Trying to wire in a relay for the sniper pink wire to switch on the ECU.

The positive side of the coil does have constant power with the key in the run position. The engine does turn over and start fine since I have wired in a separate switch for the sniper pink wire directly to the battery.


Just trying to understand this 1967 wiring setup.

 

[PGreenlawMD]

Wife just got home so I was able to explore in more detail

The solenoid posts for my setup only have power at the "S", "I", and starter post when the engine is cranking. No power from either small post in the run position. That pretty much eliminates anything off the solenoid from being a switched power source or using a trigger for a relay.

That leaves a fully separate switched source directly from the battery either simple fused line or using a relay. That is what I am currently doing with the switch laying on the floor in the cab for the time being until I install it more permanent if this is the permanent setup. I am not certain I would need a relay for this setup given how limited the amps are for the sniper EFI pink wire turning on the ECU.

The other option mentioned about in other posts helping me with this issue would be to use a relay triggered from the + side of the coil to activate the pink wire/ECU with the key in the run and crank position. The positive side of the coil does have power in run and crank. Then no separate switch needed in the cab to make the sniper work.

Any thoughts on pros and cons of each approach appreciated.

 

[Slowleak]

Based on this ‘67 wiring diagram, you should have power at the brown solenoid wire when switched to run. The brown wire splits off from the red/green coil wire at connector “B”. Follow wires 16,16A, and 262. You may want to trace the wiring and see if the resistor wire was bypassed in route to the coil...

 

[Slowleak]

You should also have power in run and start, to the green/red wire (904) on the voltage regulator. That connects to the same ignition switch terminal and the coil wire. Do you have stock ignition system and distributor or has it been switched?

 

[PGreenlawMD]

I appreciate the input. Should have power at the brown wire at the solenoid at run without crank but do not.

I don't think it is worth all the trouble of trying to figure out why I don't at this point and time. The bronco has never had a problem starting or running from an electrical perspective. Especially not with rewiring with a painless harness at some point before the end of this year or early in the next calendar year.

 

[PGreenlawMD]

You should also have power in run and start, to the green/red wire (904) on the voltage regulator. That connects to the same ignition switch terminal and the coil wire. Do you have stock ignition system and distributor or has it been switched?

It was changed a couple of years ago to an MSD HEI distributor. Not done by me but a professional mechanic shop.

 

[Slowleak]

It was changed a couple of years ago to an MSD HEI distributor. Not done by me but a professional mechanic shop.

That would most likely not require a resistor wire. I expect the resistor wire was bypassed which would explain why we don’t see a pink wire on the ignition switch, and the lack of power to the brown wire.

 

[PGreenlawMD]

That would most likely not require a resistor wire. I expect the resistor wire was bypassed which would explain why we don’t see a pink wire on the ignition switch, and the lack of power to the brown wire.

Hence the struggle to find a switched power source for the sniper.
Thanks for all your input. Still learning a lot about this bronco (broncos in general) and I have owned it for 8 years!!!

 

[DirtDonk]

Interesting colors though. The "S" wire should be Red w/blue. Not Red w/green.

Was that a typo in the first post, or is it actually Green w/red?
Green w/red is for regulator and is powered any time the key is in ACC or RUN.
Red w/blue is powered only when the key is turned to START.

If the Brown wire is not getting power when the key is in RUN then the Brown wire has been disconnected from the Red w/green wire at the ignition coil, OR, the ignition coil wire is not getting power from the key.
If the S wire at the starter relay/solenoid actually is Green w/red then the starter should kick in as soon as the key is turned to RUN or ACC. Since it sounds like it's not, then power is not coming through on the S wire.

Paul

 

[Steve83]

Note that it's a "relay", as that wiring diagram indicates; not a solenoid (which would be ON the starter).


(phone app link)

 

[76 bronco J]

>>> Merriam-Webster dictionary... definition of solenoid - a coil of wire usually in cylindrical form that when carrying a current acts like a magnet so that a movable core is drawn into the coil when a current flows and that is used especially as a switch or control for a mechanical device (such as a valve) ..... these old starter relay switches, starter solenoid switch, starter magnetic switch or whatever one wants to call it has a solenoid inside.... bottom line is using the first 2 names will get you the same part handed to you at pretty much every autoparts store....notice the motorcraft package below labeled "solenoid switch"​

 

[DirtDonk]

Ford called it a relay originally. The later packaging probably reflects just what you said. The market knowing what to look for.
It's a "starter motor relay" in all (that I've seen anyway) of the Ford (and most of the aftermarket) shop manuals.

That's a new definition to me then, so thanks for looking it up. The old definition when I looked it up twenty years ago was that, to be a "solenoid" it had to do physical labor in addition to closing a switch contact. Such as move a lever, pushing a gear, moving a plunger to move an external object, etc.
A simple electrical contact switch did not make it a solenoid.

Never saw the "especially as a switch or mechanical device" without it being "specifically for" those duties, rather than "especially for" those duties.
I wonder if their definition left out some detail, such that the "switch" it's talking about has to be externally activated by the "relay" to do it's work? As in a situation where the plunger moves another switch controlling something?
Don't know, but it leaves it open in my mind at this point.

And most labeling has been changed over the years, so that's not an indicator of correctness anymore. Especially if the label was printed in China even after looking at old diagrams! I've seen old boxes that say "switch" or "interruptor" or "relay" too. Like you said, the word solenoid will get you what you want because there have been literally generations of people calling them solenoids.
But the dictionary definition using "and" instead of "only" certainly may be a better indicator. I wonder if other dictionaries agree, or vary on that theme?

I'll stick with "relay" though, as that's what ford called it and what my original definitely of a relay vs solenoid indicated.

Thanks

Paul

 

[Slowleak]

I used to only call it a “starter relay”. I only referred to a starter mounted mechanical actuator as a “starter solenoid”. However, times have changed.....

WildHorses refers to it as “STARTER RELAY - COMMONLY CALLED STARTER SOLENOID”

Tom’s, CJ Pony parts, Jeff’s, Summit, Scott Drake and Dennis Carpenter all call it a “Starter Solenoid”.

NAPA refers to it as a “Solenoid switch”.

To me, it’s still just a relay.....

 

[bmc69]

To me, it’s still just a relay.....

But..not all relays use solenoids.....;D

 

[Slowleak]

But..not all relays use solenoids.....;D

Yup. That’s true too..

 

[Steve83]

Every relay you encounter on your eB or any other vehicle will contain a solenoid. But an eB contains a transmission - do you say "I love driving my transmission on the beach when the weather's nice"? Probably not. So why call a relay a solenoid just because it contains one? When you buy a relay (starter or otherwise), are you ONLY buying the solenoid portion? No - you're buying the whole relay.

Do auto-parts-store employees understand what they're selling?

%)

So why go by their terminology when you know it's wrong (based on what Ford - the designer/manufacturer - calls it)?

IDK what edition of Webster's you found that definition in, but it doesn't make sense. A coil of wire CANNOT act as a switch. Neither can a solenoid. So it could never be "especially used" as a switch. It can be (and often IS) used to CONTROL a switch; and in that configuration, it's called a "relay".

A relay (in this context) is a solenoid-activated switch. It's not a solenoid; and it's not a switch. It IS a "solenoid switch", but that's an antiquated & awkward expression. The normal term is "relay".

Calling a starter relay a "starter solenoid" only creates confusion because there IS such a thing as a starter solenoid, and it's NOT the same as what this thread is about.

 

[Slowleak]

Thats a good summary Steve. However, there are solid state relays which have no moving parts, meaning no solenoid....

 

[76 bronco J]

>>> with the use of the word switch(like I did earlier) a starter solenoid & a starter solenoid switch can be & are 2 different things.... looked up several sites & dictionaries & none dismiss the solenoids work done in a switch.... show me one, maybe I didn't look hard enough... all switches/relays don't contain solenoids & everything I said earlier will get work done in the real world.... at the end of the day, debating with architects & internet mechanics is for the most part a waste of time..... now go get to work on that frame....

 

[Steve83]

...there are solid state relays...

But not on an eB or any other vehicle you'll work on, as I said above.

 

[broncodriver99]

But not on an eB or any other vehicle you'll work on, as I said above.

Not on an EB no, but there are on plenty of other vehicles one might work on and they are becoming more and more common.

Solenoid is a perfectly acceptable and accurate description of the Ford "starter relay" being discussed due to it's construction as well as it being an industry accepted term with many manufacturers still using the term in their descriptions and on their packaging.

Having this discussion every 2 months is ridiculous. Everyone knows what is being discussed whether it is called a solenoid or a relay. And those that call it a solenoid are NOT wrong even though you like to think so and tell them so.