For the love of GOD...can we do the brake upgrade guide completely???

[Bronco Paul]

Ok...even thou the topic has been covered more times than I can count...could we possibly get all of the questions out in the open and answer them?

First off we all know that there are two front axles found in the EBs...Dana 44 and Dana 30.

Now I'm sure I'll screw this up...so please feel free to correct me...I just want to get a complete guide put together so that it might be put in the FAQ area and never have to go down this road again!

Ok...that being said...

Dana 30s were put in EBs from 1966 to 1970.
Dana 44s were used in EBs from 1971 until 1977.

I know there is a cut off date somewhere in there...was it halfway in 1970 or 1971?

Next question...
What else were the axles put into...?

Ford full size from when to when?
Chevy from when to when?
Jeep from when to when?
Scout?
Others?

I know that the Jeep axles are the narrowest and that the EB are like 1.5 inches wider...what about the full size Fords or the other makes?

Now for conversions...
I know that the all Ford Dana 44 conversion uses pretty much everything from a 1979...does that cover F150s from 1976 up until when?

The Chevy conversion uses the spindles, calipers, brake pads, and backing plates from a late 1972 until an early 1975 4X4 and the rotors and hubs from a Ford...1976 until ? Ok...it's late...what did the bearings and hoses come off of...I think you grab those off of the Chevy as well...?

Ok...those are the only two conversions I hear about...what about Jeep?
Jeep used the Dana 30s in a ton of vehicles...most having Discs...can these be used? I've heard rumors that the spindles are the wrong diameter to be used with the Ford hubs? ...but then Jeep had at one point the same lug pattern as Ford...I think on the older Jeeps...so can those rotors and hubs be used?

Now the stuff never talked about...
Are there any differences in rotor diameter? Did some come with 10 inch while others 12 inch?
Are the drum spindles used in any disc setup?
A list of all of the diameters might be helpful...

Ok...I think thats a good start...so help me out and lets get all the facts collected about the brakes and axles...

 

[bax]

No, we can't do the break upgrade guide all at once. It's part of the fun.

 

[broncnaz]

The big problem with a complete guide to discs is there is little info on some of the oddball swaps because you usually have to cobble several different parts together to get them to work. its easier just to use the common swaps parts are easier to obtain and the info is out there.
Mid 71 was the cutoff point from D30 to D44 my 71 happens to have the D44.
As for axle info check out Mr N's site(should be a link in the links section) he has a ton of axle info but basically dics didnt come on fords until 76 so there are no earlier ford version out there. I believe that most Jeep D30's use different knuckles and have a different spindle bolt pattern so thats out. But even some of the early jeep axles D27 d44 use the ch#vy conversions to attain discs. The scout and dodge conversion may work but are really similar to the ford setup and may require using the knuckles also which can cause steering angle issues and tierod issues.
While there are some D44's with larger rotors(D44HD) but the caliper brackets dont fit on the 1/2 ton sized axles so 11" is the standard. I could go on but its kind of a mute point.
Just try a search for the oddball conversions you wont find very much but it may help you in your quest. Most of us are looking for as close to bolt on as possible so to much modifing will turn most people off of many conversions.

 

[73azbronco]

I'll throw down a question i have. Why can't a stock ford 76 Disc setup from an EB be used to install on say a 73 front drum??

 

[broncnaz]

It can you just have to use the kunckles off the 76 also all the ford conversions require using the knuckles out because the spindle bolt pattern is different you will also run into differances in tie rod differances.
I'm thinking about heading to the junkyard this weekend I saw another ch#vy disc setup that I may have to acquire( might offer it up for sale if it has the correct spindle as it might be a later model D44 with the larger spindle. But with my luck it will be gone before I get there.

 

[mp]

I'll throw down a question i have. Why can't a stock ford 76 Disc setup from an EB be used to install on say a 73 front drum??

It can. Swap knuckles out and replace the ball joints while you are at it. But as mentioned above, the 76-77 knuckles are different and will require a longer drag link.

 

[mattt]

Something I heard of recently is that the full size Dodge's of the same era use the larger 2" 6 bolt spindle, and the Dodge lug pattern is 5 on 5.5. Has anyone compared the Dodge hub/rotor assy. to a Ford hub/rotor assy? I've wondered if the Dodge hub(at minimum) could be used with the larger diameter Chevy spindle on an EB(71-75) D44 knuckle? If the spacing is the same between Dodge and Ford hubs, this might work and open up the door to using the larger 2" diameter Chevy spindle???? Anyone checked this out, & know for sure??????

 

[Broncobowsher]

Ok...even thou the topic has been covered more times than I can count...could we possibly get all of the questions out in the open and answer them?

First off we all know that there are two front axles found in the EBs...Dana 44 and Dana 30.

Now I'm sure I'll screw this up...so please feel free to correct me...I just want to get a complete guide put together so that it might be put in the FAQ area and never have to go down this road again!

Ok...that being said...

1)Dana 30s were put in EBs from 1966 to 1970.
2)Dana 44s were used in EBs from 1971 until 1977.

I know there is a cut off date somewhere in there...was it halfway in 1970 or 1971?

Next question...
3)What else were the axles put into...?

4)Ford full size from when to when?
5)Chevy from when to when?
6)Jeep from when to when?
7)Scout?
8)Others?

9)I know that the Jeep axles are the narrowest and that the EB are like 1.5 inches wider...what about the full size Fords or the other makes?

Now for conversions...
10)I know that the all Ford Dana 44 conversion uses pretty much everything from a 1979...does that cover F150s from 1976 up until when?

11a)The Chevy conversion uses the spindles, calipers, brake pads, and backing plates from a late 1972 until an early 1975 4X4 and the rotors and hubs from a Ford...1976 until ?
11b)Ok...it's late...what did the bearings and hoses come off of...I think you grab those off of the Chevy as well...?

12)Ok...those are the only two conversions I hear about...what about Jeep?
Jeep used the Dana 30s in a ton of vehicles...most having Discs...can these be used? I've heard rumors that the spindles are the wrong diameter to be used with the Ford hubs? ...but then Jeep had at one point the same lug pattern as Ford...I think on the older Jeeps...so can those rotors and hubs be used?

Now the stuff never talked about...
13)Are there any differences in rotor diameter? Did some come with 10 inch while others 12 inch?
14)Are the drum spindles used in any disc setup?
15)A list of all of the diameters might be helpful...

Ok...I think thats a good start...so help me out and lets get all the facts collected about the brakes and axles...

1) mostly. There are some early D44 offered by the factory. Then there is also the swapped parts over the years
2) mostly. There are also those who put there old D30 into a newer bronco before selling it.
1,2) the real issue is the steering knuckle. There are 2 versions (king pin and ball joint). The king pin was used on all Bronco D30s and a few Bronco D44. Ball joint is used on all Bronco D44 and the knuckle available in drum and disk flavors.
3) Bronco axles were only used in Broncos. But just about every light duty truck built from the 60's until IFS took over used a Dana axle. Each built to the manufactures specifications. Some times they paritally carried over designs.
4-9) I am not going to get into these as the axles do not swap in. Some of the brake parts may swap around.
10) Ball joint swaps worked on models up until '79. In '80 Ford came out with that wonderful new twin traction beam thing. That has a slightly different ball joint arangment that does not carry over to the older axles.
11a) Chevy spindles '73 to '76 because of the bearing size. Uses the same bearings as the Ford rotor. Backing plates I think were the same until '87 with the difference the 1 piece shield on the early one and 2piece sheet metal on the newer ones. Rotors listed as Ford '76 to '86. Don't know what changed in '86
11b) This is why you want the early chevy spindles. The bearings are the same as the Fords. This is what lets you happily splice Ford rotors onto the GM spindles.
12) Jeep crap. Rotors are smaller. All D30 ball joint, Bronco D30 are king pin. Can't put the D30 ball joints on the kingpins. I have heard that the D30 ball joints are smaller and spaced differently then the D44 ball joints.
Bolt pater for the wheels stayed the same with the CJs. This is why using a CJ front rotor works on the rear disk conversion. In '86 with the YJ the bolt pattern changed. This effectivly throws CJ disk brakes into the don't even bother catagory
13) a few minor changes in diameter but they are all considered 12" brakes. At least the Bronco/Blazer/F150/half ton trucks we use for swaps. Any larger rotor and the traditional 15" wheel won't fit.
14) no
15) Diameters of what?

 

[eb66to77]

I love parts interchangeability threads like this. I love the responses. That is a lifetime of knowledge in just a couple of posts.

 

[kb6677]

Back in the day when the fronts were easier to get CHEAP-we did knuckle out from a 78/79 F150/BB-as has been posted, this required using a different steering setup which we planned on anyway. This swap seemed to be the least painful and straight forward..................

 

[73azbronco]

So steering needs to be changed if knuckling a 76 into a 73? Besides knuckles and drag links, anything else different from a 73 to 76 with Disk? How much effort or cost to swap knuckles? Would axles be different? I realize finding the 76 knuckles may be a pain, it would just makes sense to me to minimize the Chevy this and Dodge that, I think. I could be wrong...

 

[eb66to77]

I did a '76 to '74 swap knuckles out. the axles will fit. The steering is different in ball-joint size and style (inverted Y and crossover).

A F15 or a Bronco will have larger tie-rod ends. I was thinking of swapping again to 1/2 ton stuff for that but it really isn't that important to me. The larger TRE's will thread onto the Wildhorses drag link and tie-rod but you would need a two way adjustable tie-rod to do this. You would need to ream out your knuckles to fit the 1/2 ton stuff. BC Broncos sells a reamer for that.

 

[Bronco Paul]

What about the locking hubs? Can I use the ones from my drum setup on the disc? ...are there any differences?

 

[broncnaz]

The locking hubs are the same for the disc and drum brake models just make sure you use all the internals for the hubs you use as sometimes they are different interanlly but pretty much all the 1/3 ton stuff can swap.
Dodge rotors/hubs are a whole different beast as many were full time setups which have no locking hubs and if I remember right not all were 5 on 5.5 some were 5 on 4.5 I think. But I think there are some dodge setups than can work the calipers are very similar to Ford calipers

 

[Broncobowsher]

Hubs? Where is that smily opening a can of worms?

For the most part Ford GM and some Dodge and some larger Jeep interchange.
CJs use an external hub, not good. I think IH is the same. Look up an aftermarket hub for a Bronco and see what else it fits, that will tell you a lot.
Sometime Dodge went to axle disconnect. Big nut holding the axle to the flange. Worthless to us.
Dodge also used a small 5 on 4½" pattern, but I don't remember it on the 4WD

 

[broncnaz]

So steering needs to be changed if knuckling a 76 into a 73? Besides knuckles and drag links, anything else different from a 73 to 76 with Disk? How much effort or cost to swap knuckles? Would axles be different? I realize finding the 76 knuckles may be a pain, it would just makes sense to me to minimize the Chevy this and Dodge that, I think. I could be wrong...

Thats what I thought I wanted to keep it all Ford but really the ch#vy conversion is far simpler and cheaper in the end. You really only need Ch#vy caliper brackets, calipers, brake pads, brake line and spindles to make it work. the rotors/hubs bearings and seals are standard Ford. Brake lines are really the only adapter piece needed
For the Ford version yes they are Ford parts but you will still need to acquire these parts I wouldnt bother looking for a 76/77 setup. I'd go for a 78/79 setup off F150 or Big Broncos. You'll still have the tie rod issue but you wont have the wheel back spacing problem that the 76/77's have. But still need adapters or have the knuckles reamed for what ever tierods you go with.you'll also need new brake lines to adapter the ford calipers.
Overall cost between the 2 setups is very similar in the end but it all depends on how cheap you can acquire the parts I got my ford knuckles out for $50 I bought a whole axle from a guy who listed it in the paper. Overall it cost me about $300 to convert bought new hubs/rotors, bearings/seals, calipers brake lines, ball joints and tierod adapters. Although you could get luckly and get good rotors/hubs with good bearings that would bring the cost down.
I've been acquiring ch#vy parts and have spent about $60 on backing plates and spindles. I'll probably have to spend another $180 on the rotors hubs bearings, seals ect. So it should work out cheaper than the Ford setup.

I like my Ford setup but, I would recommend doing the ch#vy conversion for pure simplicity its far more bolt on than the ford setup is. And once its on the only replacement ch#vy parts needed will be calipers,brake pads and maybe a spindle if it goes bad.

 

[Bronco Paul]

Ok...one more...after '76 Chevy went to the bigger bearing spindles...can these be used? What about their backing plates?

 

[BronCowie]

Ok...even thou the topic has been covered more times than I can count...could we possibly get all of the questions out in the open and answer them?...

I'll be sure and contact you when I get the funds to do my upgrade... some time around the year 2012 when my last kid gets out of college

In the mean time, I will continue to stand on the pedal anytime I need a to stop quickly... been doing it for years.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Ok...one more...after '76 Chevy went to the bigger bearing spindles...can these be used? What about their backing plates?

Backing plate, yes. That is what I run
Spindles, no. But I have heard of the big bearing spindles being machined down to fit the Ford (smaller) wheel bearings so you can use the 5 lug Ford rotors. The inner spindle bearing/seals are the same. The length is right. The outer bearing is right. Inner bearing wrong. Seal I don't know about. It is an option if you can find a good affordable machinist and can't find the small bearing spindles.

 

[mr.n]

1) mostly. There are some early D44 offered by the factory. Then there is also the swapped parts over the years

There are 2 versions (king pin and ball joint). The king pin was used on all Bronco D30s and a few Bronco D44. Ball joint is used on all Bronco D44 and the knuckle available in drum and disk flavors.

Rotors listed as Ford '76 to '86. Don't know what changed in '86

Broncobowsher, lots of good information! Nice post!

Just some problems I see...
I'm not aware of ANY early Dana 44. Spicer list the first Dana 44 in the U100 (aka EB) as 1971, BOM 603218.
All Dana 44's in Bronco's were Ball joints. You have to go to the pickup to find a kingpin Dana 44, and the last year was 1970

86, Ford tried a funky Hub. I've forgotten the detail but they went back in 87, so 87-92 rotor also "works".


Bronco Paul,
Why don't you do the research and write an article?
When I bought my first Dana 44, there was a lot of miss information on the web. I took the time to record some info down, and read a few book, and hit a few junk yards. Even to this day I but Dana axle parts just to help my understanding.
Your questions are still vague, and need refining. There are a lot of good articles on how to swap disk on to a EB Dana 44.
Because of all the different Dana 44, your request is hard to answer. Also, why should I spend many hours answering your question? The answers are just a good read away!