Frame Replacement Help

[Steve83]

That's not what it says. It says possessing STOLEN parts, and then removing their IDs to hide that fact. Removing the ID from a part you own is not a crime.

 

[Slowleak]

That's not what it says. It says possessing STOLEN parts, and then removing their IDs to hide that fact. Removing the ID from a part you own is not a crime.

Read it again. It says "stolen or removed". If you own a vehicle and remove a part with a vin# on it, and you remove that vin#, then you have a part in your possession with a vin# removed. That's a crime.

 

[markw]

I sure as hell wouldn't change a VIN on a frame in CA. As to the value of untitled frames, not much and sure as hell not $1000. Recently sold a frame with title AND tags for $1300.
I'd use that frame for material and pay a professional to repair your original frame. I've dealt with CA DMV/CHP on this stuff several times and you do not want to get sideways with them.

 

[Steve83]

That's a crime.

You're still misinterpreting it. Even if you pick out "removed", you still have to consider "...for the purpose of...".

What you're suggesting doesn't make sense. Think about it... Who would report that crime? How is society damaged or endangered by that? Why would anyone prosecute it? Crime in the US is defined by intent (mens rea); whom do you intend to harm by grinding off the VIN of a vehicle you legally own?

Here's another way to look at it: what happens when you or a business you hire sprays undercoating on your vehicle? The ID numbers stamped down there become hidden. Crime? If it is: how do they stay in business?

And like I said: I've actually talked to the specific people who would enforce that law in at least 2 states. Have you talked to them in yours?

 

[Slowleak]

You're still misinterpreting it. Even if you pick out "removed", you still have to consider "...for the purpose of...".



What you're suggesting doesn't make sense. Think about it... Who would report that crime? How is society damaged or endangered by that? Why would anyone prosecute it? Crime in the US is defined by intent (mens rea); whom do you intend to harm by grinding off the VIN of a vehicle you legally own?



Here's another way to look at it: what happens when you or a business you hire sprays undercoating on your vehicle? The ID numbers stamped down there become hidden. Crime? If it is: how do they stay in business?



And like I said: I've actually talked to the specific people who would enforce that law in at least 2 states. Have you talked to them in yours?

It says "for the purpose of concealing or misrepresenting the identify of" and that includes parts. If you remove the vin# from a frame you are doing exactly that. Your are concealing the identity of that part by grinding the number off. It cannot be identified without the number.

If you cover a vin with with undercoating you have done nothing wrong. You did not remove the vin. The vin is still there to identify the part, or vehicle, and it can be easily uncovered.

Here's one way it could get reported. A Bronco gets stolen and is reported to the police. A reward is offered. Somebody who is aware of the crime sees you with a bunch of parts and a frame. They notify the police.

The police ride by your house and see the frame. It's in clear view so they don't need a search warrant to inspect it. They notice the vin number is ground off. They tell you that is illegal, and you say "no it's not, it's not stolen, I own it so I can grind the vin off if I want". They correct you and ask you to prove it is not stolen. How are you going to prove that you own it if the vin number has been ground off? The vin is the only way to identify it and you have concealed its identity by removing it. How are you going to explain why you did not follow the proper DMV process?

There is a reason why vin numbers are stamped all over new cars and often etched into the glass. It the same reason that you cannot grind the serial numbers off of your guns. It doesn't matter if you plan to keep them or not, and it doesn't matter that you do not intend to harm anyone. They have to be identifiable.

Vin removal laws are primarily intended to stop theft. Allowing individuals to remove a vin without following the DMV process would only aid criminals and hamper law enforcement. It is not difficult to understand that logic.

Maybe you talked to a few people who do not enforce vin laws but I bet you can find a lot more that do.

 

[76 bronco J]

don't waste your time debating with steve83, it's too bad the full size forum didn't keep him.... & it's too bad he built his friend Frank a early bronco & now has a early bronco frame or this site probably could have avoided him.... VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVSteve83 has been permanently banned from FULLSIZEBRONCO.COM for repeatedly refusing to follow the rules. This staff action is not up for debate, review or discussion. We (the staff members of FSB) have made this final decision and we stand by it.

We are very aware that Steve is still out there... contacting members off site and trying to get answers to the details of his banning. The details are no longer relevant and we are absolutely done arguing with him or anyone else that would care to argue on his behalf. Steve was asked repeatedly, over the course of many years to follow our rules. He was warned, he was issued infractions and he was temporarily banned and still... he refused to simply follow the rules.

In our view... following the rules of FSB is an absolute requirement for any member to remain here on FSB and for FSB to continue to exist as a relevant and usable knowledge-base for the 78-96 FORD BRONCO's and a gathering place for those who like, own or appreciate them. We do not and will not make exceptions for anyone... from the newest and most annoying of noobies to the oldest and most beloved FSB veterans and/or staff members.

The majority of the few rules we are here to uphold have been reviewed, discussed, voted on and agreed to by the members of FSB. If you haven't been involved in the process, it's because you weren't here at the time. We take no pleasure in creating or enforcing more rules here and we try to avoid the process whenever possible... allowing our fellow members the freedom and responsibility to moderate each other and themselves in their regular activities, here on the site. Adding rules here is an absolute last resort and that is why we stick hard and fast to the few we have been forced to add over the years. Again, no member is exempt from following them.

Over the years it has become obvious to all of the staff members and many of the members of FSB that "skirting" the rules we have in place had become something of a game to Steve. This is NOT a game for us. We volunteer our time to do the best job we can for the membership and the site, as a whole. Playing "games", arguing endlessly and finding ways to work around our rules is simply not acceptable and to be quite honest, it's not just a horrible waste of our time and resources, it's disrespectful to the site, the staff and the membership.

As a result... Steve83 was finally and permanently banned from FULLSIZEBRONCO.COM.

We are here to serve the membership but we are also here volunteering our personal time to do this job for free, to help the site to continue to grow and improve. We prefer to keep our actions open and honest to our fellow members. We have been reluctant to spell out the reasons for Steve's banning because we know that he wants noting more than too bitch and moan, too complain and argue... whether it's here or anywhere else online and we are simply done. We are done justifying our actions to him. We are done laying out all the details of our rules for him to pick apart and/or exploit loopholes. We are done playing games with him. We are done putting up with his piss-poor attitude and endless arguments. Just because you are good at arguing does not mean that you are right or righteous. It's simply means that you refuse to accept the reality of the situation. Well... we are done putting up with Steve83 and that is the final reality.

We regret that these actions may have upset or confused some of our members but we do not take the act of banning ANY member lightly and you can rest assured that we have discussed the pro's and con's of our actions and feel that this was the best action we could take for the benefit of the site, as a whole.

We thank you for your understanding, your time and your support.

Sincerely,
FSB Staff

 

[Slowleak]

Interesting info.....

 

[Jamie Chriss]

So I have a bend frame that most likely is toast what should my next move be? I was going to get one from West Coast Bronco. Maybe they could fix mine? I think somone could fix it, just no sure where to start. I think someone use to working on Fords would be a start? Any suggestion would be helpful!

 

[Skiddy]

Interesting info.....

I have heard that before
been wheeling with him once, ahhh never mind:-X

 

[Attac]

Jamie
Since west coast is close to you find out from them what the estimate would be for them to repair your frame. I'm sure most body shops that has a frame rack could but they prob won't be as familiar with eb as a specialty shop that builds them are.
Once you get an estimate then weigh your options from there. You may be pleasantly surprised to see that it could cost less than the 1000 you were quoted for a frame. It may not be the case but I would go that route first. Body shops with these new frame machines do wonders. As other have said frames can be cut and repaired/reinforced.
Chuck

 

[Skiddy]

Jamie
Since west coast is close to you find out from them what the estimate would be for them to repair your frame. I'm sure most body shops that has a frame rack could but they prob won't be as familiar with eb as a specialty shop that builds them are.
Once you get an estimate then weigh your options from there. You may be pleasantly surprised to see that it could cost less than the 1000 you were quoted for a frame. It may not be the case but I would go that route first. Body shops with these new frame machines do wonders. As other have said frames can be cut and repaired/reinforced.
Chuck

I was thinkin the same thing, have seen the machines do wonders

 

[wepuckett]

So I have a bend frame that most likely is toast what should my next move be? I was going to get one from West Coast Bronco. Maybe they could fix mine? I think somone could fix it, just no sure where to start. I think someone use to working on Fords would be a start? Any suggestion would be helpful!

Review all options, get as many quotes as you need to, for youj to feel comfortable, talk to your local DMV to find out exactly what the laws you have to follow are, as that may or maynot eliminate some options. GL

 

[Steve83]

Your are concealing the identity of that part...

From whom? It's mine. Am I concealing it from myself?

If you cover a vin with with undercoating you have done nothing wrong.

a)Any person who knowingly...has in his possession any motor vehicle...from which the manufacturer's...identification mark or number...has been...covered...is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

%) I didn't change or paraphrase what you posted - I just took out the words that you said didn't apply. It's still in-context. So how do you feel now about businesses that apply undercoating?

They correct you and ask you to prove it is not stolen.

I've met & talked to a LOT of cops, and I've never met one who was so ignorant of the law that he asked me to prove I didn't commit a crime. They all knew it was their job to prove it if they thought I had committed one. Including stealing car parts (which I've never done). But assuming one showed up and asked me what you suggested, my response would be: "I possess it - that's proof that it's mine."

...remove a vin without following the DMV process...

What is the DMV process to remove a VIN?

...I bet you can find a lot more that do.

I agree that laws are enforced differently by different agents & agencies. But that doesn't tell us who's enforcing them correctly & who's misinterpreting them.

don't waste your time debating with steve83...

Obviously, you have nothing to contribute to this on-topic discussion, so you're attacking me personally, which makes you a troll.

And just to show you how much that bothers me: I posted it 2 years ago when they did it.



So get your facts straight - they banned me for (in their own words) "NO REASON". They never identified a rule that I broke or tried to work around. Nor did they say where online I was bitching &/or moaning. Let me know if you find where - I'd like to see it, too. And if you really want to waste more of your time, you can find several other discussion forums that have banned me. Have fun. ;D

 

[Glass Pony]

This staff action is not up for debate, review or discussion................................ The details are no longer relevant and we are absolutely done arguing with him or anyone else that would care to argue on his behalf.............. . We prefer to keep our actions open and honest to our fellow members...........

I don't know Steve83 so I'm not going to argue on his behalf but why would you put up a post in a discussion forum that cannot be discussed?

 

[Steve83]

I don't expect anyone to "take sides" on a matter that was concluded years ago, but I agree with you. What's the point of a discussion forum if NOT to discuss things? And if everyone agrees on everything - how much discussion will there be? I don't see disagreement & discussion as a problem. They seemed to (as do a few people here). We parted ways, and I haven't looked back since then, until the troll here posted something off-topic in a discussion thread.

 

[76 bronco J]

>>> I'll stop trolling poor Steve & add some info found on the subject of VIN#'s... 'cause I really am just curious... see statute 1364. Altering Or Removing Motor Vehicle Identification Numbers>> https://www.justice.gov/usam/crimin...removing-motor-vehicle-identification-numbers >> Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. ..... clear right.... not so fast..... >>> Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. The legislative history is abundantly clear that subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole for the operators of "chop shops." See H.R.Rep. No. 1087 on H.R. 6257, 98th Congress, 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984). ...... link on that subject, see section B >>http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...relim&granuleId=USC-prelim-title18-section511 .... still not sure that says/means you can screw your VIN# plate or stamp your VIN#'s on a different body/frame..... either way, I'd make sure there is a clear paper or video trail when dealing with altered/missing VIN & serial #'s.... maybe the original poster can use one of the West Coast Bronco frames from ICON4X4 ,but I still don't think they should be up to $1000 without titles accompanying them....

 

[Jamie Chriss]

Bronco Guru I love your passion! I am just a 2nd time newbie Bronco owner that is totally over my head. I thought I had my frame solved before your brought up some very good questions. As a mentor I see Steves side and this is a discussion forum and I think we all appreciate that. All I can say is thak you Bronco people this site is fantastic. Someday I will be in a place to answer these questions like your guys do.

 

[Slowleak]

>>> still not sure that says/means you can screw your VIN# plate or stamp your VIN#'s on a different body/frame..... either way, I'd make sure there is a clear paper or video trail when dealing with altered/missing VIN & serial #'s.... maybe the original poster can use one of the West Coast Bronco frames from ICON4X4 ,but I still don't think they should be up to $1000 without titles accompanying them....

You are referring to the US Code. State codes can be much different such as in NC where it is a felony to stamp a vehicle with a number that was not assigned by the DMV unless you are a licensed manufacturer.

http://law.onecle.com/north-carolina/20-motor-vehicles/20-109.html

California code only allows stamping of vins issued by the DMV or approval of the DMV to restore an original vin.

http://law.onecle.com/california/vehicle/10750.html

 

[markw]

Good find Slowleak, pretty much what i thought. OP, is there any chance you can find a fabricator to repair your frame? Keep it legal brother, you are only the current care taker of this classic!

 

[camp9k]

https://hanford.craigslist.org/pts/6140642847.html

had a bronco with a vin on the body and frame that didn't match... went to chp and both vins came up as the same licence plate and title...as long as it is done right you should have np swapping frames.

john