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Harmonic Balancer / Pulley line up Problems

Broncojoe1972

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Jan 10, 2007
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Loc.
Toney
I am upgrading from a 170 6 cyl to a 302. I purchased from a pick and pull a 302 from a 1984 Frod Van. I replaced timing chaning/fuel pump, water pump, ect. I replaced the original water pump with a bronco water pump to go with my Bronco Radiator.

I was putting the original harmonic balancer and water pump pulleys on last night and nothing lines up.

So I'm wondering if I can use an early bronco harmonic balancer (3 holes) and pulley? I think the harmonic balancer is causing the problems.

Thanks for any suggestions...
 

SeaninSt.Cloud

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Sep 21, 2007
Messages
130
I am not a mechanic, but...

From what I have read the harmonic balancer controls the amount of internal vibrations on your crankshaft and internal parts. If you have the wrong one you may decrease the life of your engine.

I just went through a similar problem with my 302 and I found it was easiest (not easy though) to locate a different pulley. Some pullies have multiple grooves and are different sizes (depths) so they will line up for you. When I finally found one with the right grooves and the right number of holes for the bolts, it allowed my belt to line up. It was actually too "deep" so I had to cut off the outer pulley groove. She runs fine.

I have a Lincoln engine in my Bronco. Before I knew it was a Lincoln I tried to mount the bronco water pump but it did not fit right. So I ordered a water pump for the Lincoln not the Bronco and it worked out.
 
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Broncojoe1972

Broncojoe1972

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Each time a cylinder fires the resulting combustion creates a tremendous amount of pressure, which becomes the force applied to the crankshaft. Each combustion is like a hammer blow to the top of the piston. It hits with enough force to cause the crankshaft not only to turn, but to twist as well. This twisting, along with the accompanying rebound (when the crank rebounds back in the opposite direction), is known as torsional vibration. This explains the broken parts that result in the absence of a good damper.

Here is another way to look at it: imagine a tuning fork. Once hit, it will ring at a certain frequency. A crank will act just like that tuning fork. But, harmonics become destructive to a crank as it reaches its natural frequency. And, the longer the crank remains at this critical point the more severe the damage will be. So you can see why a high revving endurance engine needs a good damper.

Note: The purpose of a harmonic balancer is to control harmonic vibration, not to balance an engine. So even if a motor is zero-balanced it will still need a damper.

From http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1_029.htm
 

gearida

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This may be true, Joe, however and my knowledge comes from Mopars, there are internally and externally balanced motors each require different harmonic balancers. Now a Ford may not have this to worry about, in which case never mind.
 
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Broncojoe1972

Broncojoe1972

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Yes - I'm just wondering if putting a bronco harmonic balancer will cause any problems with the engine. Interesting at all the little problems that come up when we start mixin and matchin :eek:
 

t.lay

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Grayslake, IL
I went through the same thing - I even drilled out a 3-hole pulley - that didn't fix it. I ended up getting a billet 3-groove pulley (4-hole) from one of the vendors - I think it was Tom's. All the alignment problems went away.
 

ken75ranger

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Troy, NY
There are a few different snout lenghts for 302's harmonic balancers. You can get an aftermarket harmonic balancer. They have all the bolt holes and spacers to align it with different set-ups. You still need the corect balance weight but it should be 50oz for an '84 motor.
 

HotWheels

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Twilight Zone
We replaced the 4-hole setup with the bronco 3-hole works great and alignments issues were very minor. The balancers use are the same weight. BCB sellsanodualr iron unit that I used. It is adjustable and costs about $100 if I remember correctly. Me an Mad just replaced my 30yo balancer.
 
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Broncojoe1972

Broncojoe1972

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Toney
This may be true, Joe, however and my knowledge comes from Mopars, there are internally and externally balanced motors each require different harmonic balancers. Now a Ford may not have this to worry about, in which case never mind.

I'm not 100% sure but from What I understand, the Ford is an externally balanced engine.
Up to 1981 and later, the engine uses a different (4 bolt) harmonic balancer and flex plate. I also think that the flex plate and harmonic balancer had to match years series. For instance, 4 Bolt harmonic balancer requires flex plate from 1981 and later. A 3 Bolt harmonic balancers require use of a flex plate 1980 and earlier. So supposedly it would not be good to use a 1973 flex plate and a 1984 harmonic balancer. However you could use a 1973 Harmonic balancere and a 1974 Flex Plate on a 1984 302.

At least that's the way I understand it.
 

Broncoman

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Nov 29, 2001
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1,873
Where did you get the water pump pulley? Did it come off the six? If so that could be the problem. I don't know if the offset is different.....

Just thinking out loud......

Six cylinder pulley on left 302 from a 70 on right. About 1/2 inch of difference.

Edit..... This wasn't Joe's problem. It must be something to do with the Harmonic balancer.
 

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Broncobowsher

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OK, lot of strange information on this thread. Some of it not completely correct. I'll start with the harmonic damper, usually (incorrectly) called the harmonic balancer.

The damper is there to catch a resonate torsional vibration and keep the crankshaft from breaking. If you take a long socket extension and try working a stuck bolt you will notic the shaft twists and will spring back. Now find the frequency that the shaft will resonate at and add a little more energy at the peak. The cumulative addition of energy will build up and break that shaft. The crankshaft is that socket extension and the firing pulses are the source of energy. The damper works by the inner and outer rings on the rubber center cushioning that torsional vibration. It is covered nicely in a book called "Mechanical Vibrations" ISBN 0-486-64785-4

Same book will also cover the balance issue. This is usually easier to understand if you think of a tire that is out of balance. There is a heavy spot that tries to pull the tire off the center axis. To balance a tire you counter that heavy spot with another heavy spot (wheel weight). The early engines have a rating of 28 oz-in and the new engines are 50 oz-in. That oz.in is ounce inch. one oz-in is 1 ounce of weight 1" from the center axis of the spinning shaft. In reference a moderate sized tire weight is one ounce. on a 15" wheel that is 7½" radius. or 7½ oz-in imbalance. The difference between the old and new is 22 oz-in, about 3 times the imbalance of a moderatly out of balance tire. Now keep in mind a tire spins fairly slow, a big truck tire could reach 1,000 RPM at around 100 MPH (depends on tire size). Really it sees a lot more around 500 RPM. Engines turn 5,000 RPM. So 10 times the speed. Or another way of looking at it is what a tire spns going down the highway is about what an engine does at idle, and the forces go up as speeds increase.

Also, there are plenty of 70's cars and trucks with 4 bolt early balance harminic dampers. Also all 351 engines use the early 28 oz-in imbalance, and those stayed that way until the 90's. So being 4 bolts does not indicate what balance the damper is. It can go either way. But the 3 bolt was discontinued before the 50 oz-in was made. So there are no factory 3 bolt 50 oz-in balancer to shop for. A good machine shop can change the balance of a damper from one to the other or there are aftermarket dampers to take care of this swap issue.

So simply, no cou can't just bolt on the old 3 bolt bronco damper onto the '84 302 engine. There will be problems.
 

Broncoman

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Here is what Joe is working with. He sent me a picture in an email and I resized it for him.
 

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needabronco

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Prescott/Farmington
Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't look like the damper is bolted all the way on. There looks like too much room between the damper and the timing cover. Like I said maybe it's just me...
 

Hazegray

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Aug 10, 2004
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795
If you are looking for a damper, this is the place where I got mine: http://www.damperdudes.net/

If you notice, the 74 and up 302/351 vans have a different damper which could be the root cause of your pulley misalignment.
 
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Broncojoe1972

Broncojoe1972

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Toney
Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't look like the damper is bolted all the way on. There looks like too much room between the damper and the timing cover. Like I said maybe it's just me...

I wondered that too - I went out and tightened it up...I was able to turn the bolt about a half turn - that's it - she's tight.
 

Broncobowsher

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Jun 4, 2002
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35,059
If all you are trying to do is pulley alignment using a late model set of pullies and an early bronco water pump, there is an easy fix.
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+115+-153045&D=-153045
I had to use these when putting together my mixed bag of parts (that appears very close to your bag of parts).

Do be warned that there probably isn't enough room between that third pulley and the radiator for a fan. I took my pulley to a machine shop and they put it in a lathe to cut the front pulley off. It looks like a 2 piece pulley but there are some very healthy spot welds holding them together. I destroyed one pulley set and never did get them to seperate. But those 4 bolt 3 groove pulleys are easy to find.
 
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