Help with Wiring, HEI, and Ignition

[cwware48]

Hello everyone. I have a ‘74 with a 302. Last year installed a FiTech 400 with the help of this forum.

After a year of the FiTech, I decided to upgrade from points to an HEI distributor. However I cannot seem to get it to crank now. As in, I turn the key and nothing happens. No clicks, no noise at all, just the FiTech turning on.

Relevant new parts: Ignition key switch & cylinder; alternator, starter, starter solenoid, HEI distributor, and battery.

The HEI install: I removed old points distributor and the coil. I installed the HEI distributor at TDC. I connected the blue wire from the FiTech to the Tach terminal on the distributor. I added a splice to the green wire w/ red (904) stripe right before the voltage regulator and connected that wire to the Batt terminal on the distributor.

Testing: using a voltage meter I tested several spots. With the key off, I get a full 12-12.2 at the battery. I get 11.9-12 at the solenoid. With the key in RUN, I maintain those #’s and get 11.94-98 at the brown wire on the solenoid and 11.96-11.98 on the wire I spliced to the green wire with red stripe (904). With the key on start, I still get 11.98 on that wire.

I fully understand I might have done all of that incorrectly. I’ve read just about every thread relating to this, and I thought I had the proper way to install figured out. I’m open to any and all suggestions. I just can’t understand how I’m not getting any reaction whatsoever when I turn the key. Love the forum, thanks for all your input.

**Also, I bought a relay to try next. I’ve never done that before so any help with that will also be appreciated.

 

[75MIKE]

If it were me, I would throw your old solenoid back in and see what happens. The new one,since it's electrical, I give it a 50% chance of it being good.

 

[DirtDonk]

...After a year of the FiTech, I decided to upgrade from points to an HEI distributor. However I cannot seem to get it to crank now. As in, I turn the key and nothing happens. No clicks, no noise at all, just the FiTech turning on.

The good news is that you still seem to be getting power to the key, so your power wiring is still intact. It's just not getting to the starter relay, or the new part you put in is defective.
Which is an all-too-common occurrence these days.

Relevant new parts: Ignition key switch & cylinder; alternator, starter, starter solenoid, HEI distributor, and battery.

The bad news is that any of the parts in RED could be the problem.
But start with the starter relay/solenoid because that's the most common problem.

The HEI install: I removed old points distributor and the coil. I installed the HEI distributor at TDC. I connected the blue wire from the FiTech to the Tach terminal on the distributor. I added a splice to the green wire w/ red (904) stripe right before the voltage regulator and connected that wire to the Batt terminal on the distributor.

Not sure how much current the new HEI takes, but it'll be worth keeping an eye on your battery charge/alternator output as your engine is running. And see if that Green w/red wire gets warm after awhile.
This might end up being a good spot for a relay, but not sure yet and none of this would pertain to you not being able to crank the motor with the starter.

Testing: using a voltage meter I tested several spots. With the key off, I get a full 12-12.2 at the battery. I get 11.9-12 at the solenoid.

Replace the battery cables if you haven't done it before. That's wayy too much voltage drop for such a short run over such a large wire.
Should be zero difference between the battery reading and the readings at the starter relay. Should read exactly the same with no drop at the other end.

With the key in RUN, I maintain those #’s and get 11.94-98 at the brown wire on the solenoid and 11.96-11.98 on the wire I spliced to the green wire with red stripe (904). With the key on start, I still get 11.98 on that wire.

What about checking the Red w/blue wire with the key in START?
That's the one you need to check at the moment. If it's got no power in START then you have to track down why. If it does, then you need to try the jumper test to see if the starter relay works.
If it doesn't, then you'll need to throw the old one back in, throw the new one away, or take it back for a refund.

I fully understand I might have done all of that incorrectly. I’ve read just about every thread relating to this, and I thought I had the proper way to install figured out. I’m open to any and all suggestions. I just can’t understand how I’m not getting any reaction whatsoever when I turn the key. Love the forum, thanks for all your input.

How about a picture of your starter relay/battery corner?
Might help in case we can see something missing.

**Also, I bought a relay to try next. I’ve never done that before so any help with that will also be appreciated.

What kind of relay? And for what circuit?

Paul

 

[cwware48]

Thanks, Paul. I appreciate all the input from everyone. I’m going to try all of these suggestions and report back late tomorrow afternoon. Thanks again!

 

[rguest3]

cwware48 - What wire harness do you have installed? Painless?

Where did you install the Ignition Coil + Wire? This wire should be at the HEI "Bat" terminal.

I'd go back to the original Starter Solenoid too. And delete that possible issue from the equation.

 

[cwware48]

I have the stock wiring harness I believe. I’ve had the Bronco since ‘96 and it was basically bone stock when I bought it.

I had the wire from the coil going to HEI battery terminal at first but it didn’t work either. There were a couple of sparks from the solenoid and battery area (according to my wife who was watching from 15ft away).

I read on here though that that wire wouldn’t have enough power and that I need 12v on start and run and that the green/red wire would provide that. The wire that went to the old coil is still connected to the ignition switch, I have a cap on it.

Thanks for all the help. I’m going to do some more testing this afternoon, I’ll check red blue wire power with key and replace the new solenoid with the old and report back.

 

[cwware48]

Ok so further testing (and a new battery) shows there is no power at the starter relay from the blue/red wire.

As someone with very very limited electrical knowledge, does this mean I have to replace the wire?

Thanks again.

 

[DirtDonk]

Not yet.
I would try to locate the point at which the power stops. Start (no pun intended!) at the back of the ignition switch. The Red w/blue wire runs from there, through the firewall to the 4-wire connector that runs down to the automatic transmission's neutral safety switch. From there it goes to the starter relay.
And that's it's only function, so should be easy to trace to the point it gives some trouble.

Two common failure points are the NSS, or if a manual trans, the looped wire at the 4-wire connector.
I don't see if you mentioned it, but is this an automatic or manual transmission truck? And if an auto, did you make sure the shifter was in Park or Neutral before testing the wire?
Either way, test the wire coming out of the ignition switch first.
Then, whether manual or auto, separate the two halves of the connector there behind the engine at the firewall (2 Red w/blue wires and 2 Red w/black wires for the backup lamps) and see if power is getting to one of the Red w/blue wires when the key is in START.
If not, find out where the break is.
If power does reach the connector, test the Neutral Safety Switch.
If the switch tests out good, it's easy to test the rest of the circuit while the connector is pulled apart.

With the trans in Park (for sure!) run a jumper wire (unless you happen to have a PowerProbe tool?) from the battery positive to each of the Red w/blue wire contact points in the chassis side of the connector. One of them runs straight to the starter relay and if you touch 12v to that one, the starter should crank.
Just make sure the wire is re-connected at the starter relay of course.

And naturally keep your important body parts away from the fan and other spinny thingies when doing this.

Paul

 

[cwware48]

Paul, it is a manual 3-speed on the floor. Going to be later today before I can get an extra set of hands to turn the key while I run the voltmeter.

Is there a possibility that the terminal connector (90° rubber boot) can be bad? Thought about switching it to a ring terminal just to check.

Thanks.

 

[DirtDonk]

The little 90 degree thingy at the starter relay? You bet!
They go bad all the time, but surprisingly most of them can be "fixed" (at least temporarily) by giving them a gentle squeeze with fingers or pliers to tighten them up.
But that won't fix it if the wire itself is broken. And since you tested at the connector, it might be that after all.

If you do end up cutting the end off and using a ring terminal, be aware that not all relay/solenoids are created the same, and most of the early ones at least did not have threads there on that little post. They were simply "ribs" to catch the push-on connectors. Running a nut up those to hold a ring terminal is a bit fiddly. But it can be done.

Because you have a manual trans, try this quick test.
Separate the two halves of the NSS connector up behind the engine. With a short bit of wire jumper the two Red w/blue contact points on the chassis-side connector and try the key in START again.
If the starter cranks this time, you've found your culprit. The little loop of wire that Ford used for manual transmissions (since there is no neutral safety switch) gets pretty beat up after 40+ years. It's one of the few sections of wire that does not get a protective jacket around it.

In the past four or five years it seems this comes up several times a year now.
With any luck that's your issue and you can just replace it, or bypass it.

So definitely check the other stuff first, before cutting the end off the wire unnecessarily.

Paul

 

[cwware48]

So I’ve looked high and low for that connection with the loop wire but I simply cannot find it. I traced the red/blue wire from the tightly wound pack of wires from the starter relay all the way through the firewall, behind the glove box, behind the radio, and to the ignition.

The wire obviously reduces somewhere from that big wrapped group all the way down to those 3-4 wires at the switch so I’m losing it somewhere. It’s definitely not in the engine compartment. And I have no slack at all to find it behind the dash on the firewall seemingly. When I pull at it from both ends it doesn’t budge and I don’t want to rip it out.

I tried to replace the rubber 90° connector on the red/blue wire as a hail Mary without any luck.

Hopefully I’m just not understanding what I’m looking for and over looking the loop connection. The only connector I found that I could not find on a wiring diagram was 4 wire to 4 wire that had two red wires and two black/orange wires with what looked like a light connection.

Thanks for all the help, hopefully there’s a little insight out there to point me back in the right direction.

 

[DirtDonk]

Got a pic of that connector? Sounds like the right one if the Red wires have blue stripes that maybe have faded out, and the Black w/orange is just faded red?

What does the light connection look like? The backup lamp wires would go to a switch clamped to the bottom of the steering column near the firewall. Is that where they go?

Maybe e-mail me a pic to the paulb@wildhorses4x4 address and I can post them up here for you.
Or you can put them in your "garage" or other online hosting site and link them to this discussion.

If the Red w/blue wire does go straight from the starter relay to the ignition switch, then it would seem that your wiring harness is a '72 or older.
Any possibility that your rig has had things swapped around over the years? Does the door decal match the glovebox warranty plate? Ever verified the VIN on the frame?

Paul

 

[cwware48]

Email sent. Thanks, Paul.

 

[DirtDonk]

Got it. Sorry for the delay in getting them up.

Here is the firewall side of the 4-wire connector that looks like the correct one for the NSS/Backup Lamp circuits.



This is the other half. The wire colors are just close enough to be the one we're looking for, but they sure don't look normal!
I've asked for one showing the wires further up the line, but if anyone knows of another plug besides the one we're talking about here (nss/backup lamp) chime in. Otherwise I'd say that's the one that should have a loop in two of the wires.



Thanks

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

But basically cww, if I'm correct, those two Red wires in the lower pic need to be spliced together in a loop to complete the start circuit.
The fact that it worked before however seems to indicate some PO hacks that you may need to find.

You did say you traced the Red w/blue wire from the starter relay all the way to the ignition switch however. Correct? Any sections that you might not have uncovered in-between where they could diverge?
If not, then you still need to test at the ignition switch to make sure power is going out on the Red w/blue wire at the back of the switch.

When you replaced the 90 at the starter relay/solenoid, did you then test to see if you were seeing 12v there with the key in START?
By the same token, I don't remember if you said already, but did you try jumping the battery to the "S" post where the Red w/blue wire goes to see if it cranks the starter?
Make sure the trans is in neutral of course!

If you jump 12v to the S post and the relay clicks and the starter spins, then those parts are good at least. Maybe you did that already, but I did not go back and read yet.

Paul

 

[cwware48]

Paul, Thanks for all of your help and for posting those pics.

So to jump ahead, I decided to just plug that plug to nothing back into the connector from the firewall and it seems like I've re-completed the circuit back to the starter relay. A ton of cleanup on that wiring needs to be done. And in reality probably a new wiring harness. But when I tested the key in start the red/blue wire was finally getting full power.

Now that I finally have power to the relay, I can hear it clicking, and the starter turns the engine about 90 degrees but then it runs out of juice. The battery is only at about 10.5-11 volts right now so I have it on a charger to get it back up.

To ask for more help I think I need to clarify where I am with the install:

Parts

• HEI installed at TDC
• New Battery
• New Starter Relay
• New Ignition Switch and Tumbler
• New Starter

Wiring

Original ignition wire routed to a relay (from another thread: with power from 10 ga wire from starter relay and output to BATT terminal of HEI). I also have a wire spliced in to the green/red 904 available to power the batt side of the HEI (as an alternative). Blue TACH wire FiTech attached to the TACH terminal on the HEI.

So does it sound like I need to wait and get full power from that battery and try again?

Before I started this install, the bronco used to start well but once it was warm and I tried to restart it, it always felt like the starter was barely getting enough power to turn the engine. I wrapped the starter thinking it was getting to hot. This feels like that again now, just happening when it's cold. Should I consider upgrading starters or battery?

Again thanks for all the help, I'm sorry this is a novel length post. I have no family or friends that know anything about cars so this forum is my wellspring of knowledge.

 

[DirtDonk]

A slow turning starter can have multiple causes. But none of them will be legit until you get the battery back to full charge. Hopefully it didn't mind getting drained a bit.

The slow cranking starter can be heat, as you thought. But that can also age a starter prematurely.
You said a shield did not fix it, but we won't know for sure it's not heat related until you get further on. With it being a new starter though, it's a bet that heat is at least not the current issue.

Another reason is having the initial ignition timing too far advanced. Makes the engine struggle against itself and put more strain on the starter.
You installed a new distributor. You said at TDC, but have you actually looked at the timing markers with a timing light while the engine was cranking or running? It's too hard to tell exactly where it is by eye when setting it up. With experience you can definitely get it close, but you never really know until you get the light on it.

Easily could be old tired, or undersized battery cables. Might look perfectly good, but still be bad.
Obviously a tired battery plays into this as well, but a new one would normally be expected to overcome this issue. Except when it's been drained a couple of times that is.

Getting back to that whole "new" thing though, you just can't count 100% on new stuff being any good anymore. So you may be pulling your hair out for a little while longer.
So check the obvious stuff first. Timing, and cables. If you have not replaced them in awhile, do it. It's cheap insurance.

Paul

 

[cwware48]

No luck jumping the S post. Battery was at 12.68 volts when I started today, down to 10.58 after 4 or 5 turns of the key. Very frustrating that I can’t try more than once a day then I have to wait on battery to charge.

Starter relay just clicks rapidly when I turn key and tried to jump from S post. No noise or anything from the starter. Cables are clean and new.

Any ideas?

 

[DirtDonk]

Do you have another battery you can swap in temporarily?
You existing battery may be toast already. If it can't even crank the engine before it's down a couple of volts, that's usually the sign of a dying battery.
Maybe it's just not getting fully charged, but that's not what it sounds like at this point.

You can also get the rapid clicking with a bad starter relay, but that would not drop the battery voltage like you're seeing.

Cables are also tight?

When you jumped the S post, it was right from the battery cable?

Paul

 

[cwware48]

Yes it was from the battery. This battery is less than a week old but it could still be bad. It made same clicking noise when I tried to jump it from my truck and colts were reading in the 13.5 range.

I don’t know, all of these parts are less than a year old and in most cases less than a month old and I keep having to replace them. I just bought another new cable for the relay to the starter. Going with a 2 gauge this time. I highly doubt that’s the problem but I’m trying everything.

If I need a new starter do I just upgrade it and if so to what? Looking for max power but I see a lot of threads on Wiring trouble with the new high torque mini ones and I’m trying to avoid adding more wild Wiring splices and relays etc.