Holley EFI Terminator Sniper Street Dominator Single plane intake install Fixed

[partsloco]

This is my fixed video. Adobe Premiere cut off my last two videos for some reason

I thought I would try this older Holley Street Dominator intake. Holley Sniper and Terminator systems do not work well with dual plane intakes. I've also heard this with Fast EZ-EFI and possibly FiTech. The manifold is unique, its single plane and designed for the street. The small runners give you better air velocity. I don't feel any bottom end loss but I have allot smoother transition going into wide open throttle. For some reason the Edelbrock Performer bogged going into full throttle. This is for TBI EFI users. Carb users should use dual plane intake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhYqjs_Sasc

 

[DirtDonk]

Haven't checked the vid yet, but glad it worked. I'm still kicking myself for saying "yes" when the guy that bought my engine wanted the old intake too. I was keeping it for an EFI upgrade in the future, but let it go anyway.
It was one of the old Holley Z-Series intakes. Same as the Street Dominator except for an additional crossover tract between cylinders 4 and 8. (edit: and a partial height plenum divider)
Was never 100% happy with it using carbs, but figured it would be good on a TBI setup.

So far the FiTech setups have been very forgiving of intake design and cam profiles.
Gonna check out the video when I have a few minutes.

Thanks for posting up your findings.

Paul

 

[73azbronco]

I think there is more at play here for you, dual planes work just fine with TBI's. I asked this specific question of FAST, Fitech, and holley, everyone said it did not matter dual plane or single plane, their stuff would work just fine either way. HOWEVER, you must use an intake and cam for your application. That was highlighted by each manufacture. Don't expect a big bore dual plane with lopy idle to work with TBI, if won't work with a carb.

Like you however I am using a throttle body spacer, but only 1/2 inch, with 1/4 phenolic and 1/16th heat shield which makes the dual plane issue a moot point, but more for cooling than anything else.

Didn't you also have a gasket failure and strange ticking noise with yours? Didn't you also have an O2 sensor weld leaking? I think that one issue could cause far more problems than a dingle/dual plane manifold.

I think much of the dual intake "hate" results from a video made by engine masters who did nothing but slam the TBI vs a simple carb rating a carb above the TBI. They thought the TBI was harder to tune, which they obviously have no experience with anything post 1972 One guy was even denigrating his buddy for a minute on how he couldn't figure out the TBI setup. They also spent 8 seconds saying they couldn't get the dual plane to work and went single plane, yet spent over two minutes rating whether chicks would dig the TBI over the carb. huh?//

The only reputable comment about carb spacers and TBI was from a Holley tech who said they found a 1" spacer improved fuel atomization and mid to hi rpm HP. He added that would also happen with a carb, BTW.

I think what those engine masters ( i use that term loosely....) fail to realize is TBI's fix 90% of the issues folks have with carbs. And for 4x4's they solve altitude, hot start, cold start and off camber issues to boot.

Randy at Driven installs the Fitech and has no issues on either dual or single plane intakes. The tuner at Lopers High [performance who works with FAST systems, same comment. BUT, the intake needs to match the application.

Partsloco what is your cam in that stroker, who made it?

The comment that the TBI is only seeing half the MAP, may be true, I am not sure of the TBI's setup. Yet, maybe in a few weeks. However, the TBI only see's half the exhaust O2 as well. So the TBI per bank knows what the MAP is in half the motor, the other half should be the same, right? If not then the concept of using only 1 O2 sensor is invalid and we know thats not true. Two sided O2 sensors are used to time independent injection impulses vs averaging 4 injectors used by 8 cylinders or 2 injectors for 4 cylinders. Not as perfect as direct injection, but far better than a carb these days.

 

[DirtDonk]

One experience does not make much useful data of course, but Justin's (at WH) rig has a big cam and a small intake, and did seem to give EFI some fits.
The MSD Atomic worked fine, but never quite perfect. The Edelbrock couldn't stand it at all and it didn't seem to make a difference which cam style you set the initial parameters for. The FiTech is the most forgiving of the three for that combination so far.
FiTech made it sound like they were aware of the issue, but thought that the positioning and aiming of their injectors played a role in making theirs more compatible with dual-plane intakes.
Could just be who you talk to, as well as when. Info tends to change as more data comes in, so maybe my info from them is just old.

At the time at least, the intake/cam combination being an issue with TBI's was an assumption on my part. More about the cam than the dual-plane intake at first though.
I think I brought it up first when he started messing with carburetors and TBI's close to three years ago or so. The videos and other discussions seemed to follow that line of thinking, and narrow down to the closed plenum intakes being part of the problem. But I hear you on the lack of consistency in the online discussions and videos sometimes. There certainly are quite a few leaning that way these days.

Now, after watching your video partsloco, was that the same spacer used in both cases? If not, that can skew your results I would think.
And did you try all the usual tweaks to the tuning with your previous setup using the dual-plane intake? Assuming yes, but wondering about adding fuel during the transition, or adding timing, or whatever.
Sorry if you've covered that elsewhere already. If so I'll check out what you've done.

For my part is was mostly assumptions, since I had no real experience with either TBI programming or big lopey cams and dual-plane intakes in my own vehicles. The intake thing just made sense to me.
With more and more coming to the market, it'll be interesting to see how this all pans out.

Thanks

Paul

 

[73azbronco]

Paul, I heard of this dual plane problem when I started my research on buying a TBI and went looking for short single plane intakes for trucks, hard to find, and none designed for off idle. Which makes sense, single plane intakes are designed for WOT high HP applications, read, drag strip. So then I started calling the manufacture tech guys and asked. They all agreed folks are only having issues if the intake and cam are not compatible with the application.

I'm betting, that most are having issues with initial tune, then decide to switch to a single plane and by the time they get a single plane intake installed, they are now better at tuning, and therefore the result "seems" better. JMHO.

I will admit, Mine has not run yet, and may find the same issue, but based on my talking with the guys who do this for aliving, and using a simple carb spacer (same style as partsloco but 1/4 the height) opening up the dual planes for the TBI to see both sides of the intake impulse, will eliminate any of those issues. I hope

 

[Digger556]

If I may muddy the water a bit:


I just fixed this issue last week after fighting a WOT misfire for 6 months.(bog, stumble etc) For those of you that know my project, I have a mild built 351W. Aluminum heads, WH shorty headers, forged internals, 9:1 compression, 35-349-8 Comp cam (1500-5500rpm power band) , Weiand Stealth dual-plane intake (idle-6000rpm) with a FAST 4150 throttle body and a Megasquirt computer. (Microsquirt V3 module)


After 6+ months of fighting this issue, about 3 weeks ago I convinced myself there was no way I was that bad at tuning and set about investigating hardware issues. I replaced every ignition component one-by-one and re-gap'd the plugs, making sure everything was set appropriate for my ignition and compression combination. No change. Checked all cylinders looking for imbalance. Nothing wrong. My only clue was an AFR flutter as the misfire began, otherwise the engine ran great with nice clean plugs. I made some inquiries on msextra forum and didn't get any answers, but comparing tunes with another member, I switched my injection strategy to fire the injectors all together instead of an alternating pattern like I had been doing. This cleared up 90% of the issue. This seemed to confirm my growing suspicion that I was having a cyl-to-cyl fueling imbalance that manifested as a lean-misfire.

Now when I bought my throttle body, I called FAST and asked if they would ship it with smaller injectors, as the 85lb units were too much for my engine. They declined, so I was stuck with 85s to start with. Using Ford's 40psi regulator instead of the GM 58psi rating, the injectors dropped to 71lb effective flow. Fast forward to 2 wks ago, I ordered 65lb injectors which would flow 54lbs at 40psi. This would safely support 390HP, enough for my engine with overhead.

The first thing I noticed with the new injectors was they had 4x tiny orifices instead of 1x giant one. After installing them, the spray pattern was better atomized. Taking the Bronco for a drive with no other adjustments, the misfire was gone.

Now another thing to note is that the FAST throttle body positions the MAP sensor between the two banks of the split-plane intake with small passages to both sides. I too was concerned about running a split-plane manifold after researching and watching the engine masters video. However the FAST system didn't pull MAP from one side only and I didn't think anyone had provided a compelling reason for not using a split-plane and the OEs were able to do it, so I think the root cause lies somewhere else and a single-plane is able to cover it up. I also believe that most of the aftermarket EFIs use way too much injector and most people don't need a 600HP-800HP EFI system. I was happy to see FITech release a 400HP unit and might have bought it if I hadn't already gone down the path I did.

 

[73azbronco]

I agree with this^^^^^^

 

[partsloco]

I'm running a F4TE (explorer, Truck) roller EFI cam. Holley and fast TbI dual plane problems are well noted. I've been running different versions of Holley EFI since the analog projection days. I've also built quite a few megasquirt. I've been running the single plane manifold for about a week and its running great, way smoother. I chose the Holley Street Dominator because it was the only single plane intake rated for off idle. Specs where Idle-5500 RPM. The problem with the new TBI system are the MAP sensor placement. The older pro-jection system ran an external MAP sensor and did not have the dual plan issue. An open 1" spacer did help. I just wanted to see what a single plane would do.

 

[partsloco]

Digger556,

Megasquirt's MAP is in ECU so a dual plan should be fine. I made a couple of video's about megasquirt. I run a megasquirt on a 1964 ford falcon with a Holley 4D throttle body.

 

[73azbronco]

Glad its working for you now. The Holley street dominator single plane is a very unique animal. As in, there are no other single plane intakes for carbs on ford 302/5.0 based motors manufactured or sold today that advertise less than 3,500 rpm as their bottom range for performance. I guess a work around would be to mill out the divider under the throttle plate, or simpler, use the carb spacer.

 

[Digger556]

Digger556,

Megasquirt's MAP is in ECU so a dual plan should be fine. I made a couple of video's about megasquirt. I run a megasquirt on a 1964 ford falcon with a Holley 4D throttle body.

My MAP is in the throttle body, as I'm running a Microsquirt computer.

I'll have to check out your Megasquirt/Falcon setup.

 

[partsloco]

Check out my old page. This is running on the falcon now. I had this on my bronco 5-7 years ago with EDIS. Its a holley 4 barrel projection throttle body with megasquirt 3.

http://www.fintechcommunications.com/funstuff/

 

[73azbronco]

partsloco, did you try or think of using a Torker II intake, looks to be similar to the Street dominator, and it's currently being made/sold.

I am having an interesting email discussion, seems Holley is admiting a single plane is best for use with their TBI's. More later.

 

[partsloco]

Yeah, I looked at the torker II, I chose the dominator because the advertised RPM started off idle to 5000. The torker II is 2500-6500 RPM. I have F4TE truck roller cam so I wanted to keep the RPM range as low as possible. I don't really feel any bottom end loss with the street dominator.

 

[partsloco]

Its the dominators small runners that keep bottom good. The small runners keep the air velocity up.

 

[73azbronco]

Yeah the street dominator is the ticket, but they don't make them anymore. Hence torqer now being the closest thing available.

OK, all my stuff is still in the box and Holley is admitting their TBI is solely for street and not intended for offroad, low RPM. They say a multiport works best. Duh.

Anyone have experience with Edelbrocks Proflo3 setup? Seems like it has way to large of an intake for our use. Looking at the price on that right now its on sale, it beats what I have in the Holley parts.

 

[73azbronco]

Bummer. Not what I expected at this point. Partsloco sorry for sounding critical but everything I was told on 4 phone calls ensuring me a dual plane would work fine, was a sales job. Parts returned to summit, their loss.

I'm out.

I'm driving the 347 out of the garage it's been in for 8 years with a Holley TA. Check that, I have a guy, Carbs Unlimited in Peoria, building me a Quadrajet with manual adjustable jetting for use between sea level and 14,000. He's got a picture of an EB on the wall at one heck of an off camber angle, driving strong on his carb mod.
Hows them apples!

I'll figure out the EFI later, I do have all the basis for it though with the fuel system and wiring and such so it won't be any more of a pain later than now to swap over. This solves my red Kote EfI tank debacle as well.


So FAST or Fitech, do they have issues with the dual plane? I'm out but keeping the discussion going.

 

[SSDDBRONCO]

How does that intake compare to the Edelbrock Streetmaster?

 

[JWMcCrary]

I've been running the Terminator on a Edelbrock performer dual plane intake with an open 1" spacer since 2013. Last year I switched the distributor so the EFI could control the timing. Did my own tuning but later took it to a tuner that was recommended by a couple guys at Summit. The only issue I have/had is a slight bog if you floor it from a standing start or moving slow with it in high range. I believe that is due to 4.30 gearing with 37" tires. Other than a bad O2 sensor and some trash in the fuel issues the system has worked great for me going on 4 years.