Interesting dilemma on Facebook

[1969]

Not my post or broncos

 

[Scoop]

Do you have a title with the VIN you show? Does your VIN (warranty) tag and title match the VIN on your frame? Sounds like the VIN warranty tag and the title and the frame have been separated in the past.

 

[markatherton]

whoever has the frame with vin will have legal title

 

[Scoop]

I reviewed the BaT listing and it states the auctioned Bronco has a custom built mandrel bent tubing frame. So it does NOT have the correct frame with the VIN shown.

 

[1969]

Here is the post

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1108560012497869/permalink/6422696314417519/?mibextid=W9rl1R

 

[jamesroney]

whoever has the frame with vin will have legal title

We have a WINNER!!!

According to the NATB Motor Vehicle Identification Guide, the ONLY VIN location for a Bronco is stamped on the top surface of the RH frame rail.

The Vehicle Warranty Data Plate, which happens to have a copy of the vin number on it...is not to be used for registration or identification purposes. It's ONLY use is to provide the dealer network with warranty information. The Warranty Data Plate is a metal tag affixed to the kick panel on 66-67, and attached to the glovebox door on 68-77.

The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Label also has a copy of the VIN number (yeah, I know...Vehicle Identification Number, Number) and is located on the driver's door pillar on year model 1970 and later. It can be used for secondary verification of VIN in the event that the VIN inspector needs secondary confirmation.

So all of you a-holes that bought glovebox doors so that you can avoid smog on your Bronco are now in the crapper. Worse, if you did the glovebox swap and sold your Bronco to an unsuspecting buyer...then shame on you. But the worst possible outcome is the one where someone builds a project on a stolen frame. Finally, someone got caught.

There is no way that a glovebox swapped Early Bronco can pass CHP VIN inspection. Yeah, you might slip one past the local DMV technician, but if it goes to Tech inspection at CHP. Ask me what happens after THAT!!!

Just like @markatherton says, the legal owner of this motor vehicle is the person who has title for the frame VIN.

There's another 1976 Bronco on BAT that has a 69 glovebox. I feel sorry for anyone that buys that thing.

BEWARE of any EB being sold out of Arizona, Colorado, or California. That's where the bulk of the smog laws have trapped unsuspecting owners.

 

[hsach]

Just looked at the BAT auction also, whoever bough that bronco is going to have a fight on their hands unfortunately. If it turns out the original owner still has the frame with the correct VIN, I wonder what will happen with the supercharged one with a new frame? Does it have to be re-titled as a new vehicle and suffer all the consequences of that depending on local DMV laws? Terrible situation to be in for both bronco owners.

 

[toddz69]

Oh man - as @jamesroney noted, I figured this would happen sooner than later with all the glovebox door swapping going on. Get the popcorn popping on this one.

The 69/76 here in AZ on BAT sold yesterday for ~$56K.

Todd Z.

 

[okie4570]

Oh man - as @jamesroney noted, I figured this would happen sooner than later with all the glovebox door swapping going on. Get the popcorn popping on this one.

The 69/76 here in AZ on BAT sold yesterday for ~$56K.

Todd Z.

That guy contacted me soon after that happened, and the California DMV were actually on it quickly and had it located in AZ. Since then, it's gone nowhere legally unfortunately.

 

[Lewko66u13]

I just went through this with a local truck guy has it listed as a 1957 f250. Knowing well that ford didn’t offer 4x4 till 1959 I started asking questions, got a picture of the warranty plate and the plate he has is for a 1957 f100 not even the truck in question and he has it registered up here in Ontario as that. Tried to find the vin on the frame but someone at some point bolted an engine mount over top of it, and the original warranty plate for the truck isn’t even in the glove box door.

 

[jamesroney]

I just went through this with a local truck guy has it listed as a 1957 f250. Knowing well that ford didn’t offer 4x4 till 1959 I started asking questions, got a picture of the warranty plate and the plate he has is for a 1957 f100 not even the truck in question and he has it registered up here in Ontario as that. Tried to find the vin on the frame but someone at some point bolted an engine mount over top of it, and the original warranty plate for the truck isn’t even in the glove box door.

Yeah, F-series pickups are also tough to verify without digging around. They stapled the warranty tag onto the driver's door for many years. Swap a cab, or a door, and you end up with what you see.

Similar problem but backwards for the old Willys Jeeps. The VIN was on a plate affixed to the body by screws. So over the years, you could end up with all sorts of crazy identities. It's just one of the things about body on frame configurations. Unit body construction is a little less complicated, because you can usually see where the VIN is cut out of the aprons. But it's all kind of silly, and no one cares if you swap the engine out on the rusty deck of your lawnmower. But throw a Hemi into a Barracuda...and everybody gets excited. I have a Sunbeam Tiger. So I am quite familiar with clones, re-bodies, fakes, etc. It's just part of the deal. If Broncos stay above the $100K mark, someone will have to start a certification club and a registry.

As soon as you use the VIN for provenance, or smog exemption, or tax avoidance...the world falls apart. The only reason that the thing even has a VIN is so that it can be returned to the owner when it is found in a ditch. Oh well...

 

[Lewko66u13]

Yeah, F-series pickups are also tough to verify without digging around. They stapled the warranty tag onto the driver's door for many years. Swap a cab, or a door, and you end up with what you see.

Similar problem but backwards for the old Willys Jeeps. The VIN was on a plate affixed to the body by screws. So over the years, you could end up with all sorts of crazy identities. It's just one of the things about body on frame configurations. Unit body construction is a little less complicated, because you can usually see where the VIN is cut out of the aprons. But it's all kind of silly, and no one cares if you swap the engine out on the rusty deck of your lawnmower. But throw a Hemi into a Barracuda...and everybody gets excited. I have a Sunbeam Tiger. So I am quite familiar with clones, re-bodies, fakes, etc. It's just part of the deal. If Broncos stay above the $100K mark, someone will have to start a certification club and a registry.

As soon as you use the VIN for provenance, or smog exemption, or tax avoidance...the world falls apart. The only reason that the thing even has a VIN is so that it can be returned to the owner when it is found in a ditch. Oh well...

Yea I new in 57 they put the warranty tags on the door but this still had the original doors on it and there were no signs of where the warranty tag would have been riveted on the only sign was on the glove box door

 

[ba123]

We have a WINNER!!!

According to the NATB Motor Vehicle Identification Guide, the ONLY VIN location for a Bronco is stamped on the top surface of the RH frame rail.

The Vehicle Warranty Data Plate, which happens to have a copy of the vin number on it...is not to be used for registration or identification purposes. It's ONLY use is to provide the dealer network with warranty information. The Warranty Data Plate is a metal tag affixed to the kick panel on 66-67, and attached to the glovebox door on 68-77.

The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Label also has a copy of the VIN number (yeah, I know...Vehicle Identification Number, Number) and is located on the driver's door pillar on year model 1970 and later. It can be used for secondary verification of VIN in the event that the VIN inspector needs secondary confirmation.

So all of you a-holes that bought glovebox doors so that you can avoid smog on your Bronco are now in the crapper. Worse, if you did the glovebox swap and sold your Bronco to an unsuspecting buyer...then shame on you. But the worst possible outcome is the one where someone builds a project on a stolen frame. Finally, someone got caught.

There is no way that a glovebox swapped Early Bronco can pass CHP VIN inspection. Yeah, you might slip one past the local DMV technician, but if it goes to Tech inspection at CHP. Ask me what happens after THAT!!!

Just like @markatherton says, the legal owner of this motor vehicle is the person who has title for the frame VIN.

There's another 1976 Bronco on BAT that has a 69 glovebox. I feel sorry for anyone that buys that thing.

BEWARE of any EB being sold out of Arizona, Colorado, or California. That's where the bulk of the smog laws have trapped unsuspecting owners.

Haha, that’s a well written post, and yes, that is potentially true however, it isn’t quite that simple. You can own a frame and no vin. A seller could sell you a frame and not the vin and write it on the paperwork although who know why one would. Usually if you own a vin without a frame, the frame doesn’t exist (totaled or rusted out).

The person who has the title owns the title.

I’ve always been worried about all this stuff and how CA does things which is why I own two titles and no, I won’t sell either. If I ever sell my Bronco, they both go with it. We will see what happens when I get mine inspected (I transferred both titles to me years ago) and yes, I am worried. It will either pass, or I’ll have to drive it without registration, or I’ll have to sell it out of state. I hope it’s the first and neither of the other two.maybe I’ll move out of state.

 

[jamesroney]

Haha, that’s a well written post, and yes, that is potentially true however, it isn’t quite that simple. You can own a frame and no vin. A seller could sell you a frame and not the vin and write it on the paperwork although who know why one would. Usually if you own a vin without a frame, the frame doesn’t exist (totaled or rusted out).

The person who has the title owns the title.

I’ve always been worried about all this stuff and how CA does things which is why I own two titles and no, I won’t sell either. If I ever sell my Bronco, they both go with it. We will see what happens when I get mine inspected (I transferred both titles to me years ago) and yes, I am worried. It will either pass, or I’ll have to drive it without registration, or I’ll have to sell it out of state. I hope it’s the first and neither of the other two.maybe I’ll move out of state.

We can agree to disagree...or I am happy to continue the debate until we come to a mutual understanding.

The person who has the title certainly owns the title. But the title is only a facsimile to represent an ownership interest in a THING. You can certainly have a title and no tangible item to go with it. I have completely dismantled many vehicles where there are exactly zero components remaining. But you CANNOT claim that your title provides you with an ownership interest in a vehicle if you sold the controlling piece of the vehicle. You might make a documented case where you personally dismantled a Bronco and sold the frame, but if you did not obliterate the VIN, then the new owner can make a legal claim to the vehicle. I cannot imagine a situation where you would prevail by stating that you did not sell the VIN, when you clearly sold the unique identifying components containing the VIN. I think that there is sufficient case law in automobiles, (and certainly in Firearms...) that the "controlled piece" would govern the identity. I think you could easily win the Vin Tampering Criminal case...but the Civil case would be tough sledding. Certainly in California, if you attempted to assign your Title to a collection of parts that does not contain the VIN, stamped on the frame...CHP would obliterate any incorrect VINS, and you would need to apply for an assigned VIN. In fact, as soon as you remove the original VIN from your Bronco, you are obligated to apply for an Assigned ID.

Fast forward to a buyer, or dealer, or lien processor, or any reasonable third party...and the situation changes. When the towing company recovers the vehicle that was used in the commission of the felony and the Highway Patrol confirms that the frame VIN exists...THAT is the entity (or bundle of parts) that will be associated with the VIN. The DMV will issue a new title to the "bundle of parts" with the VIN. If there is a dispute, and it is discovered that a duplicate "bundle of parts" exists without that VIN, then the DMV will cancel your title, and issue a new title to the lien holder. (or assign a new vin to both...)

I admit that I have owned Broncos and Jeeps with numerous identities and have done exactly as you describe by holding both titles, and only registering the one that I wanted to. But I am always careful to obliterate the extra VIN stamping during the process of "Reasonable and necessary Repair" to ensure that no one can clone my car, and then later claim my title.

So I am going to continue to assert that if I have a good frame with an un-molested VIN stamped in it...I can reasonably claim ownership, and I can acquire title. Even if you retain the ownership certificate. Likewise, but in reverse...If you retain title, and you learn that I re-constructed a Bronco from your frame...if the Bronco is reported stolen, it would be returned to YOU in the event that it was discovered by law enforcement. There is a famous New York case of a 67 Shelby GT500 that was offered for sale on Ebay, and the VIN came up as stolen in the 1970's. After a very short delay, the insurance company received a nice new Shelby. The registered owner did not benefit, and the seller lost everything. The actual crook was never found.

So yeah...whoever has the frame with legal vin will get the title.

 

[ba123]

Again, I agree with you mostly…but. You can’t say that if you bought one of Tom’s new rolling chassis or one of the other aftermarket frames and got rid of yours that has a vin stamped on it that you don’t hold the title. You hold the title until you sell that title.

You should definitely grind away the title on the frame you get rid of if you’re not selling that title, imo, but what if you didn’t think of that or had no reason to think of it cause it was so many years ago.

I have no idea if a frame exists (I think the owner told me it was junked but who knows for sure) for the other vin I own and plan to register, but since I had no problem bringing in into California I’d bet it really was junked like the owner said it was.

I’d love any advice over PM (or if you wanna drive south 15 minutes and advise me over a beer) if there is something you think I need to do for my own case. I hope to get this thing done hopefully by the end of summer but my list of to-do’s is long!

 

[jamesroney]

Again, I agree with you mostly…but. You can’t say that if you bought one of Tom’s new rolling chassis or one of the other aftermarket frames and got rid of yours that has a vin stamped on it that you don’t hold the title. You hold the title until you sell that title.

You should definitely grind away the title on the frame you get rid of if you’re not selling that title, imo, but what if you didn’t think of that or had no reason to think of it cause it was so many years ago.

I have no idea if a frame exists (I think the owner told me it was junked but who knows for sure) for the other vin I own and plan to register, but since I had no problem bringing in into California I’d bet it really was junked like the owner said it was.

I’d love any advice over PM (or if you wanna drive south 15 minutes and advise me over a beer) if there is something you think I need to do for my own case. I hope to get this thing done hopefully by the end of summer but my list of to-do’s is long!

Yeah, let's take this off line. And I'm always down for a beer. I'll send a PM!

 

[Madgyver]

in what state can you get a legal title if you have the vehicle with frame but not the title?
vehicle left on a property and owner can't be found or expired.

 

[jamesroney]

in what state can you get a legal title if you have the vehicle with frame but not the title?
vehicle left on a property and owner can't be found or expired.

Every state. Send me a PM, and I can tell you how.

 

[k13evin]

Every state. Send me a PM, and I can tell you how.

Would like to know also. Because in GA they do not issue a title on older cars if you do not have a title.

 

[bmc69]

Yeah, F-series pickups are also tough to verify without digging around. They stapled the warranty tag onto the driver's door for many years. Swap a cab, or a door, and you end up with what you see.

Similar problem but backwards for the old Willys Jeeps. The VIN was on a plate affixed to the body by screws.

Roger that...I've got a pair of 1957 FC-150s and about half of a third one....

I've been ridiculed many times in FB groups for pointing out the dirt-simple immutable fact that only frame VINs are legal for title and registration purposes. All the way up to 1980 on Ford trucks.