Propane anyone?

[RFR2212]

Well, while thinking of the multitude of things to do to the bronco, i thought about adding EFI. My Q-jet does well, but it's still a carb. So I got to thinking, why not run propane?

http://www.gotpropane.com/p1.html

Anyone running it?
Pros?
Cons?

 

[bax]

Propane is good. works at any angle, runs very clean. It is a great fuel.
Only problem I have found is refills. Where I live you have to take it to the main distributor to get "vehicle grade" propane. No difference in vehicle grade or regular grade. Just the taxes are different. pain in butt.

 

[RFR2212]

so what stopping you from using a tank for a gas grill? sheerly the amount it can hold?

 

[bax]

Nothing, but they wont fill it if it is in a truck.

 

[TM Toys]

I have it in my trail rig I just brought , worked great my first trip out. Other than a little smell and as bax said "pain in rump to refill ".. I wasn't going to say it was for a vehicle .. PO gave me 2 tanks .. Used 1/2 tank for 6+ hrs of wheeling w/ the Zuki..

 

[Steve]

I have run propane because it was a cheap way for me to make big horsepower without fuel injection and still be wheelable at the time. Swapping is easy and just requires getting the right parts. You will need a tank, tank mount, fuel lock, evaporator, and a mixer. I ran all Impco stuff. If I remember right, it was a model E evaporator and a 425 mixer. I really needed two mixers to get the ponies out of the motor it was capable of but, couldn't find a dual quad intake for a 351W and was too lazy to make one.

As for driving it on the street, you have to register it with the state to be able to do so, at least in CO. It requires a special use permit kind of thing and they give you a sticker to display on your window to be legal. The state has no idea what it requires to run right, nor how it works and will tell you all sorts of crap about what you have to have on your motor if you call them.

BTU's per gallon are less than that of Gasoline. You will not get the same mileage but, that is the price you pay. Propane is really expensive per gallon and hard to find in a lot of places. Even harder is finding someone that will have paid the tax, as a station, to be able to pump it into a tank that is going to be used for a road going vehicle. Like many things, lots of people think they know all about it but, know very little about safety of propane on a vehicle and this will cause you all sorts of hassle with getting it if you have a mounted tank that cannot be removed for filling purposes.

Propane also has a significantly different timing curve than gasoline and requires some modifications to your ignition to get it to run right. Propane likes 16 to 18 degrees of advance at idle but, comes back to a gas curve around 3000 rpm. You need to be able to adjust the curve electronically or find someone that is REALLY good with machanical advance. If you wish to take full advantage of propane, you will also want to change your cam and up your compression.

 

[recoiljunky]

I've really been giving this some thought as well, so keep the info coming. I haven't started putting my motor together yet, so now is a good time to be considering this.

What performance benefit does EFI have over propane, assuming you built the motor with higher compression in consideration of the propane?

 

[broncnaz]

Theres really no performance gain so to speak as was stated you have to build the engine up more to see the same power as a gas engine by that time your probably also using more propane than you would gas so theres zero benifit there. other than emissions propane is really not the best choice.

 

[texashcane]

There are a couple of us in the Bama Gang with Propane setups. It will run at any angle that I have seen. The only drawback I have is that I have to haul the tanks down to the propane shop to refill them. I have 6-10 gallon tanks and 1-8 gallon, so I just fill them all up before an extended wheeling trip and I am done with it. I do not have much storage in the rear due to the tanks being back there, but it's really not a big deal. My rig is strictly a trail rig, so I have not dealt with any registration issues, although I doubt there would be much issue in Alabama.

 

[TexasBronco]

Last I looked Propane was only 1.98 a gallon here( like a month ago, I am sure its gone up some). And as for filling it up was a matter of going to a Big Rig Truck Stop and having the attending come out and top it off. Once I piece mine back together I too am going to run propane. I have a 351C and although I have the carb near perfect it ussually dies on me in worse possible spot.

 

[73stallion]

you guys really have me thinking about it now. i'm gonna keep an eye out and see how many propane stations are around town. i like the clean burning and the higher octane.

 

[TOFIC]

Well I have been doing some research on this for altering my 96 pickup and this is what I have found

Runs at all angles, is very similar to EFI
clean fuel, emission wise can't be beat.
oil changes are less frequent. Propane is a gaseous fuel from first entry into the engine, gasoline is a liquid all the time)
Higher octane fuel (105 to 109 octane) compare to gas (87 to 92)
Less BTU per gallon but not significant to worry. (difference is as little as 3 percent and as much as 15 percent, big deal!)
You can run duel fuel but not a good idea. (many problems with this setup the major one being the compression ratio of a gasoline engine is way too low.)
CHEAP it is 40% cheaper than gasoline
They claim propane cuts down on the HP of an engine. I disagree. a properly setup propane engine puts out the same or more HP than a similar has engine This is because of the CR and the octane of the fuel
You must build a engine to run propane properly there are good reasons for this
High compression is needed, 10/11 to 1 is the common figures put out
you must have a real good ignitions system (Duraspark or similar is recommended)
You must have a good cooling system (as the propane system uses the cooling system to change its state the cooling system must be really good)
As to refuel, this used to be major problem, but thanks to gas BBQ's, it is not anymore. My hick town (6600 people has 2 propane fueling stations.)
Gas Cans are easy, your tank on your BBQ. There are lots of websites that show you how to make the hose to fill the truck with a BBQ tank. I have done this several times with others vehicles and the best is still the 10LB tank and the refill hose.
Another popular myth is the frozen up system. Pretty hard to do, you must have a ambient air temperature of 44 below zero for this to happen. BUT after you warm up the vaporizer and get the engine going it keeps going. By the way, at 44 below I don't go too well either.
After much searching I found a great little company that does this coversion properly and gets more HP out of your V-8 engine. They had a big writeup in 4x4 garage magazine and have some very smart people working for them. By the way, the head guru's name is Shelby, how can you go wrong with a name like that.
company name is Technocarb Ltd. www.technocarb.com
Propane is a viable option but you have to have a correct engine for it.
gasoline engines run best on gasoline
diesel engines run best on diesel fuel
Propane engines run best on propane. Duel fuel is not the best of both worlds, it is the worst of both worlds in this case.

If your building an engine for your Bronco, look at this alternative.
TOFIC

 

[Dirtyboy]

Runing the dual fuel is not that bad. My motor is almost 11.1(flattop pistons and milled heads) it is absolutely fine. Electric fuel pump to switch on/off for the gasoline. When i turn off the gas she starts to stumble I then turn on the propane switch and which is an electric relay powering a vacuum switch. The vacuum switch recognizes vacuum from the motor and allows the diaphram to open and allow liquid propane into the vaporizer. If the motor stalls the valve closes automatically and the liquid propane is shut off. Im running the HEI distributor and it works great. Starting is a breeze, she lights right off...but im having problems with finding suppliers where I live. The supplier I use said the propane is 118 octane. I find the hardest part is mounting the tank and finding one to mount correctely. Price of the tanks are high also. If I have time today I will take pictures of the motor.

 

[texashcane]

I found some used 10 gallon forklift tanks for about $40.00 each and they are in good shape.

 

[Dave]

I've been watching this as an option for some time and have come to the conclusion that unless I come up with a specific reason to run propane I'll stick with gas. If they ever told me that I needed to be running an "alternative" clean fuel to run on federal or state land I'd do it in a minute.

If you decide to do it right (street legal) look into the federal and state "Alternative Fuel" credits. http://www.ngvc.org/pdfs/Notice2006-92RegSum2.pdf

Propane contains about 91,600 BTUs/gallon at and average of $2.55 per gallon for residential which does not include any road taxes.

Gasoline contains about 125,000 BTUs/gallon at about $3.00 and raising but includes taxes.

I think a properly designed EFI fuel system will deliver at about any angle that the oil system will function at. Unless you install and inverted system like we put in acro airplanes.

Another consideration if you are thinking about using grill tanks. The new ones have a tip and slosh safety valve to prevent liquid flow if they are not sitting level.

Just some thoughts not meant to poo poo or support the concept. Just do the research and make your choice.

Here is some good information:

http://www.propanecarbs.com/propane.html

Look at the chart that explains "Volumetric Efficiency". Notice that a diesel is 0 since the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, gas is 1.65, and propane is 4.03. This is the amount of oxygen that is displaced in the air charge due to the addition of fuel. That accounts of the approximate 7% reduction in power. I think that it is interesting that this is what leads to some of the gain in power of diesel verses gas. Volumetric efficiency also shows significant advantage in gas SEFI (sequential port injection) versus TBI or carbs.

And of course credit to, Hank "Taste the meat, not the heat" Hill

Discleimer: I've been home sick with a bad cold don't have anything better to do.

 

[Jfly13]

I have wanted to go to propane for quite awhile, the two things that hold me back is that I have two boys I like to put in the back, and the tanks will take up to much room, and it seems to be quite an expensive upgrade. I talked with a guy from Alabama a few years ago who was running on propane and I thought he said that you could get all of the parts needed for about $400, but everything I have seen is $1000 or more. I don't know if there is enough benefit over doing an EFI swap for me to go with propane.

I do think it makes your rig look cool though because not alot of people have it, and looking cool should always be part of your descion making!

 

[mustangtoby]

Price of Propane is also going up, at least around here. I don't use it except for the grill, but last I knew, it is over $3.00 a gallon! That little price dif doesn't justify the pita that comes with it.

 

[Bronk]

I have run a propane van, I went with a duel fuel(gas & propane) set up right off the bat just for the extra range and just in case I was in a place that didn't Have a propane fill station.

I found for regular driving in town and regular driving didn't notice any difference at all. but at highway speeds passing power was suffering.

The only real problems I had with it was @-25c it would not start and is a common complaint with propane vehicles.this is where the duel fuel really shone as I would switch to gas so I could start it in the morning then switch over to propane after the evap warmed up.

Another thing to be aware of is that propane is very hard on valves and valve seats .There are seats and valves made for this purpose. It works out more or less a head change every 2 years of constant driving and by constant I mean fleet use at least 8 hours a day all year. On stock heads with hardened seats(unleaded).

Things I liked about the this set up was it was cheaper too run on propane, Clean oil, clean burning, extra range with the duel fuel set up.

I would recommend it for a fleet type of vehicle or if you put a ton of miles in a year. otherwise stick to gas.... not worth the expense.